Theological Dislocation and the Biblical Manhood Movement

Disclaimer: After posting my initial critique of the biblical manhood movement last week, I received a number of responses. It appeared to at least one commenter that I was ungrateful for what the men I had critiqued were doing to help recover a vision for biblical manhood in the church. Before I delve into my critique any further, I want to be very forthright in saying that I am grateful for what many authors in the movement—Mark Driscoll and Al Mohler included—have done in pointing out what biblical manhood looks like. I have personally benefited tremendously from the writings of these men. I don’t want that to be lost on this discussion. Additionally, I hope that my critique only serves to make the church more faithful in her calling to be gospel centric, especially when it comes to the issues of manhood. If it fails to do such, then may my critique be ever forgotten in the minds of men.

In my previous post I argued that the biblical manhood movement was illegitimately applying observations about the way in which men act in the world to the way in which men act in the church. I framed the issue by arguing that in the biblical manhood literature there is no distinction between the men of the church and the men of the world. I further stipulated that this seamless transposition has gone uncritically accepted for far too long and that there is a number of theological, practical and pastoral side effects from framing the discussion in such a way. In this current post, it is my aim to address the theological side of the discussion. Though many are clamoring for me to address the sociological data, I have to lay a theological framework through which I will critique the sociological data in next week’s post.

Among the loudest voices in the biblical manhood movement are, Mark Driscoll and Al Mohler. In their writings, one can see how they conflate the issues of the unregenerate man with the regenerate man (see last week’s post for evidence). Yet if one were to read either of these authors on the nature of conversion, they both explicitly reveal their belief that true conversion results in true life change.  Their understanding of conversion is entirely biblical and thus, entirely accurate. This understanding is exactly what the apostle John argues for in 1 John when he states, “Whoever says ‘I know him’ but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.” (1 John 2:4-6). In this passage we see that those who truly know God will have a desire to “keep his word.” Yet if these authors hold John’s understanding of conversion then why do they paint the picture of men in the church as being given over to TOTAL worldliness? In case there was ever a doubt as to how bleak of a picture is being painted by these authors, listen to Driscoll yet again in his article “The World is Filled With Boys Who Can Shave,” when he states:

You’re the glory of God. What does it mean to be a man? John is a great example. He doesn’t waste his teens and his 20s downloading free porn, racking up his credit card debt, spending seven years to knock out his undergrad degree, trying to be the king of the fantasy football or baseball league, determined to pound more beers at happy hour and conquer more women than all the other guys to show he’s a real man. That’s no man at all. It’s a boy who could shave.

.
All of this is against the backdrop in which he is supposedly encouraging Christian men to be biblical men. His language here is an appalling overstatement. Are the “Christian” men he is counseling really out trying to “conquer more women than all the other guys?” I put Christian in quotation marks because if these are the men he is counseling, then perhaps he should start more consistently applying his own theology of conversion by questioning whether these men are even saved in the first place. Is it possible that the biblical manhood movement is talking to men who show up to church but are no more Christian than the most avid atheist?  In sum, I am saying that if these authors applied their own theology of conversion to the manhood discussion, it would stop them from painting such a bleak picture about the truly regenerate men of the church.

The apostle John is not the only one who describes what true conversion looks like. We find nearly identical ideas about conversion from Jesus himself when he states, “So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit” (Matthew 7:17-18). While Jesus is addressing false prophets here, the principle can generally be applied to anyone who claims to be an orthodox believer. The principle is also corroborated in countless other texts (Mt 12:33-35; Lk 6:43-45). If Jesus says that good trees with bad fruit is a spiritual impossibility, then why does the biblical manhood movement seem to be speaking to good trees with very bad fruit?

Unfortunately, conversion is not the only theological issue at stake in this discussion. The doctrine of sanctification, specifically as it relates to the promises of God, is also in view. Paul tells us in the book of Philippians that, “… it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13). We are told that God is at work in believers. No matter how little or how slow the sanctification process seems, Paul can be confident that God will finish the work that he started (Phil 1:6) because he knows that it is God doing the work. Thus even when man fails at his role in sanctification, God NEVER fails on his end. We see similar ideas laid out in Romans as well when Paul states, “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers” (Romans 8:29). Again, we can see that God is in the process of transforming his own. More then that, it is predestined that they be conformed to his image. Part of the sanctification process is for men to be formed into biblical men. Nowhere in either of these passages is there an exception clause for biblical manhood issues. However, when reading literature from the movement, it seems as though God forgot to sanctify men when it comes to being a biblical man. Based on the way in which they describe the situation it starts to look as though the promises of God have failed. And though I don’t believe the authors realize this problem when they construct the issue in such fashion, it is no small matter.

The upshot of posing the issue in such a way that the promises of God seem to have failed is that the authors come dangerously close to giving off an appearance that God is unfaithful to those he redeems. One passage strikes me as particularly relevant to the topic. In Ezekiel, we are told why God decided to spare the Israelites:

Then I said I would pour out my wrath upon them and spend my anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt. But I acted for the sake of my name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations among whom they lived, in whose sight I made myself known to them in bringing them out of the land of Egypt… Moreover I swore to them in the wilderness that I would not bring them into the land that I had given them…. because they rejected my rules and did not walk in my statutes… Nevertheless, my eye spared them, and I did not destroy them or make a full end of them in the wilderness (Ezekiel 20:8b-9, 15-17).

Here we can see that God followed through on his promises to the Israelites for his own name’s sake; so that his own name would not be profaned amongst the nations. God also describes similar motivations for sparing Israel in other parts of the Old Testament as well (Isa 48:9-11). The cutting off of God’s people from his promises would have been great cause for derision of his name. This is no less the case today. If it appears that God’s men have been cut off from the promises of sanctification, what is the world to think? My fear is that when the writers in the biblical manhood movement describe such a dim picture of men in the church, it begins to give off an appearance that the promises of God have failed and this in turn hands the world a loaded weapon to profane the name of God.

Some will argue at this point that I need to address the sociological issues. I will do that next week. However, based on all the theological issues that I have addressed so far, I would say there is a compelling case for disbelieving the way the case has been framed in the biblical manhood literature. I simply can’t believe that then men in the church (and by that, I mean those who are truly saved) look like the world because I know that true conversion creates a new life (2 Cor 5:16-17). I simply can’t believe that men in the church look identical to the world because I believe God is faithful to sanctify his own. I simply can’t believe that men in the church are given to total worldliness because I believe that God is faithful to his promises. I simply can’t believe it because the Bible tells me otherwise.

You might also enjoy…

32 responses to “Theological Dislocation and the Biblical Manhood Movement”

  1. I think I know what you’re saying: Driscoll has created a sort of myth about how bad Christian men are, but this very myth doesn’t have any real correspondence with the reality you experience. Is that right?

    Driscoll is an expert in bombastic statements, and I think you need a different hermeneutic for understanding him. Someone else might come with facts and even realistic anecdotes. Driscoll comes with outlandish exaggerations. I’m not a big fan of what he does in this regard. Charitably, however, I submit that you might want to see an element of satire at play here. Satire is always over-the-top and this approach can help us see what we might otherwise overlook.

    1. Ryan M

      Matt,

      Thanks for the critique. I can certainly concede that it was somewhat of a lazy move to use Driscoll in this article yet again because he often makes those bombastic statements. However, I don’t think that explains what is going on here. While Driscoll makes it easier to spot because of his exaggeration, it is by no means an absent thematic element from other writers. In my first post, I tried to argue that it was apparent in Mohler as well. Although, again, Mohler is a more interesting case becuase he is so thoroughly awash in neo-Kuyperian social theory.

      Going forward, I will make sure to pull from some other writers as well. I wish I could post an extended blog surverying countless authors and literature but I simply don’t have the time.

      Anyways, thanks for the charitable reminder and I will keep it in mind as I move forward.

      -Ryan

      1. Hey bro, I didn’t think you were being lazy! I just wanted to offer a different understanding of Driscoll, a more satirical reading, if you will. I just can’t think of any other way to take him.

        Keep on keeping on, man…

  2. John Anthony Dunne

    Ryan, my question is: are you certain that he has “saved” men in view? What if he actually is targeting the newly converted or the seekers in his congregation?

    1. And what if he actually has John Dunne in view here?

      1. John Anthony Dunne

        I think he has men like Barty Lovebucket in view to be honest.

        1. Kevin O’Farrell

          I always assumed it was Barty Lovebucket in view

          1. I don’t have anything to add to this comment thread, but I like the stair-step look and wanted to add to it. Also, did anyone else cringe at the sight of Shawn Livingston’s knee?

          2. John Anthony Dunne

            Caleb, apparently this is the end of the stair-step. And yes, I cringe every time!

          3. Tanner Gish

            I’m disappointed- I thought the basement was a few steps lower. And I do question the appropriateness of such a picture- the physiological horror shares one word in common with one word in the title, and I don’t see ‘dislocation’ anywhere else in the post. Maybe we need a post on how desensitized we as Americans are so violence real pain. I feel for the guy.

    2. Jeremy Goad

      I really just spent a lot of words trying to ask what you did in two sentences. Brevity is a gift that God hasn’t been pleased to give me.

      On an unrelated note, I was just talking to my dad about your recent accomplishments. He was so proud of you (as am I), and had to make some ubiquitous comment about you in diapers (which, by the way, I don’t think you were in when Dad was at East, but let him reach). I immediately pondered that at various points, I taught each of the three Dunne children in either nursery or Sunday School, and in high school. Man, I’m old!

      1. John Anthony Dunne

        Haha thats awesome if your dad remembers me in diapers (I personally don’t think we attended until I was at least 4ish). And that is totally legit that you taught all three of us as babes and teens! Thats pretty legit!

    3. Ryan M

      John,

      Thanks for the question. I am certain that they have saved men in view. I think I laid out that case in the first article, though it sounds like I may need to do it again. I would also pose that if he is speaking to newly converted believers, it seems like a bizarre hobby horse to ride and ride hard at that, for someone who has just come to Christ. I could argue a number of issues from a pastoral perspective if he is riding them that hard. If he is addressing seekers that is more problematic than any other possibility. What is point of calling non-believers to be biblical? Sounds like a move away from the gospel and toward moralism. Again, it is equally as disturbing if he is doing that. Granted, my critique would need to take a different angle if this was the case but I don’t believe it is.

      -Ryan

  3. Jeremy Goad

    Ryan,
    My hearty thanks for outlining a solid philosophical and theological argument first before PROCEEDING 😉 to a sociological one. It is true that the last two centuries have unfortunately turned HUMANE matters into SCIENTIFIC ones. After teaching social sciences (psychology, sociology, and anthropology) for the last few years, it is my overwhelming belief that the humanities (grammar, rhetoric, logic, as well as philosophy and theology) are far better suited to deal with the problem you have outlined. Augustine and Aquinas would have both thrown up in their mouths a little bit if he would have seen us QUANTIFY the human condition rather than QUALIFY it. That being said, my previous request for sociological data was one of convenience to your argument rather than laying an appropriate groundwork. My apologies for my lack of patience.

    I now turn my attention in general to your argument. In no way are my comments meant to invalidate it, but to further buttress your argument by pointing out areas that I, as one humble reader, see as slight weaknesses. This is conversation for edification here, brother. May my own predisposition to snideness and haughtiness be damned!

    Certainly there is much scriptural evidence of God’s faithfulness in the sanctification of His bride. However, that does not alleviate the responsibility for the shepherd to point out sin in the church. Most of the New Testament epistles come to mind here. While God is not slack concerning His promises, He still has appointed shepherds to train His flock.

    Secondly, or perhaps furthering my first point, the New Testament seems to have far more text devoted to it warning us against sin, both specific and general, than it does text illustrative of God’s role in sanctification. I know that sounds bombastic at first, but let me develop it further. Certainly we know that prior to conversion there is no good in us save the image of God we were created in, and likewise, sanctification is from its foundation a work of God, but (and the Westminster divines put it here better than I could) that God does His work without violence to our will. There is an element of human participation in living out our faith that the warnings against sin in Scripture presuppose and that God works through.

    To make a grandiose statement (the sort of overstatement that Matt Wilcoxen would recognize in Driscoll — profound comment by-the-way, Matt), if God could call out barbarism in the church in Crete and debauchery in the church in Corinth, certainly he is capable of (and might very well be) calling out a lack of masculinity in the church in America. In both of these places the church was still acting like the world. Perhaps we aren’t that far removed.

    God’s leaders have always called His people out of their sin toward repentance. Your reference to Ezekiel is good, but there are so many passages where the prophets cry out for God’s people to turn from their wicked ways and the other gods they serve to right standing in His eyes. Calvin said it well, our hearts are idol factories. Thank God for sanctification so we can slow that conveyor belt down.

    Also, while “he that is spiritual judges all things,” I think that it would be ill-advised for a pastor to not speak out on an overwhelming problem he sees within the church based on his knowledge of the status of the salvation of his parishioners. Scripture is pretty clear that the area of the heart is God’s sovereign jurisdiction. Since pastors are not omniscient, they have to call them how they see him.

    In your defense, the church of the last couple of centuries hasn’t helped matters much here. The movement away from credes, the failure of elders to hedge of the Lord’s Table from those that are not communicant and in good standing, the virtual abdication of church discipline, the adoption of the Sinner’s Prayer for assurance in stead of examining one’s self to see if he “be of the faith.” etc. have all made it virtually impossible for congregations to even make a stab at identifying sheep and goats.

    All in all, in my opinion, you’ve done a good job in arguing your case here. You’ve picked a topic that was by no means low-hanging fruit. In making a persuasive argument, pathos hasn’t been on your side from the beginning as you picked a movement with which many Christians are blindly in lock-step. I commend you for testing these things against scripture! I look forward to your continued thought on this topic.

    To steal from Greg Koukl, thanks for giving me a piece of your mind and allowing me to give you a piece of mine.

    1. Ryan M

      Jeremy!

      You are the man for giving me such a lengthy and thoughtful response. Very helpful. Couple things:

      I agree with you that there is certainly a sense in which much of the New Testament is warnings against sin or idols or whatever. However, even in these warnings the authors are unbelievably gracious and see God at work in the worst of situations. Take the book of 1 Corinthians which you referenced. Paul starts the letter by thanking God for the grace that the Corinthians possess. That’s how he starts. So yes, even though he decries many aspects of the church he starts by thanking God, not for what he will do but what for he has done and is currently doing. More then that he says that he is confident that Jesus Christ will, “sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Paul is confident of God’s sustaining grace, even in a horrible situation. When the authors in the biblical manhood movement, make a seamless move from worldly men to church men, it is as though a gratefulness like Paul expresses gets forgotten.

      The one critique that really resonated with me is in regard to how human action plays out in sanctification! I wrestled with that for awhile before even hinting at God’s role v. our role in sanctification. How does that play out? It is certainly indisputable that both God and man play a role in sanctification. Yet based on what I see in the text so far, though I could certainly be convinced otherwise, I would say that God’s promises guarantee that man will remain active in his part of sanctification. He does this by sovereignly ordaining that they do so. If we took the promises and worked with a baseline that places our cooperation as the foundation of sanctification then if we fail, we won’t be sanctified. However, I think if we start with God as the foundation of the synergistic sanctifying framework that we can be sure with Paul that we will be sustained to the end becuase God is able to sovereignly ordain our particiaption in sanctificaiton. Does what I am saying make sense? This is why I also argue that we can assume that men are being sanctified because if it starts with us and we don’t follow through then it is impossible for God’s promises to come to pass.

      Finally, I agree that pastor’s have a responsibility to call them how they see them. However, I still say (and will argue next week) that they have no data points to work off of. If anything the onus is on the movement to prove otherwise. They use data from the world, not the church! As such, I find it so bizarre that data is being demanded of me when everyone is assuming that they have data in the church to back up their assumptions. I challenge anyone to find hard data from the church (under theologically acceptable parameters) that meet out their conclusion about men in the church. It’s simply non-existent.

      Anyhow, thanks for giving me your thoughts. Love them. Keep interacting with me.

      -Ryan

  4. As always, I see a lot of condemnation and encouragement to grow up and mature, but very little practical insight into doing so. Let’s use me, personally, as an example. I’m 26, living at home with my parents, and working part time in the marketing department of a reasonably large Midwest furniture chain. I graduated high school in 03, was going to community college until 06 (took 3 years due to a death of a grandparent and missing a month of school, plus the opportunity to be editor of the student newspaper for a year) and working 35 hours a week the whole time to pay it all off same semester. Took a year off to work full time, built up some savings (foolishly did not buy a car), decided to go back to school full time for my bachelors in 07, moved out of my parents and maxed my credit card paying for groceries, books, and I’m sure something stupid like video games (another check on Mark’s list), lost my job due to working 38 hours a week on top of a 18 credit load (and my job wouldn’t work with me for school demands), switched majors twice due to inability to get into high demand specialty school, worked part time on campus while taking 14/15/16 credits a semester, had to move back home due to low income, lost the car my family gave me when the radiator blew up, finally graduated Dec 2010, was hired as a consultant at the place I interned at (gradually had hours and pay cut), was fired, and now at my current position.

    Now, I hear Driscoll, Mohler, and others (in my mind) rightly saying “grow up, move out, quit playing video games, find a job, and get married”. All things I want to the point they are perhaps idols. Yet I’m not finding this “job” that pays the minimum $80k a year so many pastors say you must make before you get married (in order to support a wife). In fact, I’m not finding any full time paid jobs without 5-10 years of experience. So while I’m happy with my current job and it will look amazing on my resume, I’m also looking for part time jobs to supplement my income.

    So I’m incredibly challenged and discouraged whenever I hear Driscoll and others talking like this (and it really sucks because I credit Driscoll for having a large role in me still being a Christian after a bad church experience). I know what they say is true, but I don’t see them in my position saying these things. I don’t see them marrying while making more than $1000 a month. I don’t see them unable to find a job because it appears God has called and provided. I don’t see them bored out of their minds trying to fill their time when resumes are being rejected as soon as they are sent.

    Perhaps I prove your original point. As a Christian, I desperately want to be better, do better, be more, do more. I’m not content in any way right now. And I’m sure it has killed my thankfulness when my unsaved friends get the good jobs with less experience or talent (though I rejoice they are employed). I know I have made idols out of financial independance, owning a vehicle, having a girlfriend/wife, working a satisfying job, etc.

    But I don’t know anymore. Forgive me for ranting.

    1. Dustin A

      I appreciate your desire to distinguish a sociological v. theological matter and in emphasizing the differences between in the men of the church and those outside of it.

      My worry is in regard to the assumptions you’re making about salvation and sanctification among men. At this point it appears that there is a general category (“total worldliness”) being established that lumps together anyone who plays video games, is currently unemployed or doesn’t make enough money, or struggles with the sin issues listed in there. Then everyone in that category is questioned for their salvation; if not doubted/rejected altogether. Obviously the golden standard for a man is one who doesn’t fit any part of Driscoll’s negative description, but that doesn’t give us room to doubt the salvation of any man who doesn’t.

      My main point is that we need to see things on more of a continuum then simply in an “A or B” categorical fashion. I think Stuart’s comment above is reason to question these harsh categorizations. The issue is being wildly oversimplified.

      I’m not at all trying to excuse drunkenness, womanizing/sexual sin, or even laziness as anything less than they are: sinful. We need to be careful about equating a man’s struggles to the depth and extent of his faith. In the Bible we can find an example of someone sincerely pursuing God and simultaneously struggling with any of these sin issues.

      Driscoll isn’t saying these are unforgivable sins. Rather they are particularly lamentable because they all are a result of misdirected energy and passion. Driscoll’s point through all of that was that the application of the self that goes into these should instead be directed to building the Kingdom. He draws a huge parallel between the appeal and adventure of a video game (how that feeds the desires of the masculine heart) and the fact that this distracts people from seeing this is exactly what the life of a zealous believer is like.

      1. Ryan M

        Dustin,

        Thank you very much for your comments kind sir. I know I say this to all my commenters but I am truly grateful that people want to have these discussions and I am grateful that you took the time to reply as you did.

        To a couple of your points:

        First, my “assumptions about salvation and sanctification,” were informed by explicit biblical texts in the article. If you disagree, I would be interested to see a) what you understand these texts to mean and b) what sort of tact you would take on sanctification and salvation.

        Secondly, I agree with you that there needs to be a spectrum but the spectrums ought to be in category “A and B.” There is a spectrum of manliness or the lack thereof for worldly men (A) and there is a spectrum of manliness or the lack thereof for regenerate men of the church (B). The spectrums exist for both classes of men but make no mistake, they are both still separate classes. Addtionally, maybe I wasn’t clear enough and this is certainly my fault, but I am not saying that if a man struggles with one of the sins that Driscoll listed that his salvation should be questioned. Driscoll is using the singular form in that quote, thus he is describing a solitary individual man who sees all those things happening in his life. If the entirety of life looks like Driscoll described, it can be very safely assumed on biblical grounds that this person is not a believer. Again, see the texts that I quoted. It is one thing to struggle with one or a couple of the sins. It is another thing for life to be completely characterized by this type of capitulation.

        Additionally, from a biblical standpoint, conversion does produce very real and very immediate changes. The idea that someone comes to Christ and wallows along for what seems like years after being converted just doesn’t square with the biblical picture. Certainly, the person is not a mature Christian overnight. But there is a genuine desire for repentance, growth etc.

        Anyway Dustin, thanks for the thoughts. I hope you keep reading and interacting.

        -Ryan

    2. Ryan M

      Stuart my brother,

      This series is written for men in your situation. You are the guys I had in mind when I started this. I think so much of the movement is frustrating for young-mid 20 something male’s in the church. I don’t think the authors in the movement realize how crushing some of their words or applicational suggestions can be. And the reason they are crushing is because they have no basis reality or the applications are flat out contradictory with so many other things that we are taught. I went through this wrestling for two years until finally figuring what to accept and what to reject from the movement.

      Stay with me.

      Here is the schedule for the next 4 posts:

      This week: Sociological data and its flaws.
      Next week: Problems with SOME of the applicational suggestions in the movement.
      3 weeks out: How the macroeconomic picture is going to change the practical discussion of biblical manhood.
      4 weeks out: The best route to pursue for guys who want to be more biblical men.

      I hate to get ahead of myself, but after hearing your story, I want to suggest the following to you, if I could be so bold. I think the best route for young men to go on the path to becoming a more biblical man is to find a man in your church who you respect and can disciple you. You need to respect him as a Christian man and he needs to know the principles of biblical manhood. But he also needs to know your story and where God has called you in life. The reality is that many principles in biblical manhood are lived out very differently from man to man because each man is unique. To say that every man should get a high paying job, buy a house, etc. is simply ridiculous. Not even remotely biblical to be honest. For some, that is the calling. For others, it is not. I for one can say that I will likely never own a home and will never own much of anything material goods because I plan to be on the mission field my whole life. I don’t say that to toot my own horn, I say that to show you how difficult it was to understand what God wanted me to do when reading the biblical manhood movement. For awhile, when reading these authors, I thought maybe my desire to live small was misguided. Maybe I should just go ahead and buy that house. So you need a man who can be sensitive to the vision that God has called you to in life. Or if you don’t have a vision, can help you form one and then point you to how responsibility looks in that given vision. I will write more on this later.

      But brother, be encouraged. You are not held to man’s standards for your life but God’s and that may look different for you than it does for someone who buys a house and gets an 80k per year job.

      -Ryan

      1. Jeremy Goad

        Ryan,
        I skipped this before I wrote my earlier post which will appear below this on the page. That was stupid. It is helpful to know the place from which your frustration with the movement comes from. This helps SO MUCH in establishing the “Why should I care” factor or pathos for your argument. I agree with you that some of these practical applications seem stupid and are not at all biblical applications.

        Stuart,
        I feel for you brother, and as a married man with kids in my thirties who has spent his whole adult life in ministry and education, I can assure you that big money has not been my history, nor will it be in my future. I agree wholeheartedly with Ryan that Biblical Manhood is best caught rather than read. Relationship was the first and most important means God gave us for education and personal discipleship is the best road.

        Be encouraged and know that Manhood, like any virtue, starts from the inside and works its way out. Practical application before real internal transformation is legalism and death. The hard news is that maturity comes not through books, sermons, or blogs (while all of those might be tools God uses), but through experience. And, experience is always best learned from in the context of relationship so do go and find yourself some amazing godly men and be around them as much as possible.

        Also, never pay for an oil change. Seriously. Men should always change their own oil. 🙂

  5. Tanner Gish

    Stuart,

    I appreciate your transparency, and before I read it, I was thinking the same thing- from what I have heard, most of the “manhood” exhortation of these leaders, especially Mohler, is more so about independence from one’s parents, and leaving and cleaving to a spouse to build a family that will seek to be centered on the LORD. I myself am not married. And I know many who don’t have that $80k a year job. I know I don’t.
    That being said, 1) a comment about the content of what the church leaders in question are discussing: I hear more commands to “stop playing video games” and to pursue independence, versus adolescent dependence, more than I hear exhortation to stop ” conquering women” and “pounding beers.” Biblically, it seems that sexual licentiousness and drunkenness fall in one category, and a “heels dragging” speed of life advancement to be a completely different one (BTW, Stuart, I see a tenacious striving for independence in the biography you left us- not a couch potato mentality). Ryan, I’m assuming that next week’s sociological post will categorize these, but I think that this discussion may require looking at how individuals like Mohler address explicit sins, and how they address some of these other issues (which in most cases may have sin such as selfishness at the core, but perhaps some just are operating along a life timeline that they feel is the new normal considering the economic barriers Stuart mentioned).

    Secondly, to everyone, 2) these economic barriers. Anyone can shoot me down here, but doesn’t it seem that throughout history, and in many countries today, we see multiple generations habituating the same home, working and continuing the same family trade, and working to raise a family and care for the elderly as a tighly knit unit of what we might today call one’s “extended family?” First century, Middle ages, even early America, even through the generation around the great depression- its seems that complete economic independence at the age of 22-24 is rarity really only see in post WWII America. Could it be that somehow living/ doing life together with one’s family family (of course, still “leaving and cleaving” to your own sub family) is really the proper paradigm, and maybe one our financial woes are causing us to return too?

    1. Thanks Tanner, I appreciate that. I do at times tend to be a couch potato, but that is often because there is no alternative. For instance, I had knee surgery in 09, and basically was held up the whole summer so didn’t pursue summer jobs. Legitimate, sure, but I’m sure I could also have figured out a bus route to get me a job that would have allowed me to sit down, yet I didn’t.

      Additionally, I’ve committed myself to going to the gym at least 5 times a week in order to drop all this extra weight I’ve accumulated, so I’m actively working to better myself for hopefully something good in the future, God willing.

    2. Ryan M

      Tanner,

      As always, your feedback is much appreciated. I think you are right in terms of delineating certain types of sins. I will attempt to do that as I move forward.

      Second, I agree with you 100% on point two. As a matter of fact, I will argue in my fourth post that Driscoll, Mohler and others completely butcher Genesis 2:24. The verse talks about leaving to cleave to a wife. Not leaving to cleave to your own apartment, with your high paying job so you can be independent. I will argue as well, like you have stated, that many of their application points are cultural and distincly American rather than explicit biblical recommendations.

      Anyhow, great thoughts.

      -Ryan

  6. Dave Hoos

    Ryan,

    A good discussion and lots of good responses.

    Another response:

    It is hard to tell for sure who is regenerate though the Bible does call us to be fruit inspectors. King David was regenerate but an adulterer and a murderer. Lot (2 Pet. 2:7-8) was regenerate but hardly a model of sanctification. Rather than trying to decide whether someone is regenerate we should go by whether they claim to be a Christian. If they do we should call them to godly living, to holiness.

    In Romans 12:1-2 we are called to present our bodies as a sacrifice, to be holy and to not be conformed to the world.

    In Eph. 5:15-17 we are instructed to look carefully how we walk, make the best use of our time, and to not be foolish.

    In James 3:10-13 James instructs his brothers in Christ about the tongue: it ought not to bless and curse (note the “ought”).

    There are many things in the lives of Christians that “ought” not to be but they “are”. We cannot just trust in “automatic” sanctification. Hebrews 10:24 calls us to stir up one another to love and good deeds. This is what Al Mohler, Marc Driscoll and others are doing. And now I will risk referencing Hebrews 10:26 although interpretation is debated. This passage makes reference to sinning after having knowledge of the truth. People must be told the truth and that includes young men. Some are not aware that they are conforming to the world. Some are not aware that they are required to make wise use of their time, etc.

    Maybe young Christian men are not exactly like the world but often times it is nearly impossible to tell the difference and they need to be made aware of where they need to improve.

    1. Dustin A

      well said, dave!

    2. Ryan M

      Dave,

      My brother… I always enjoy the theological sparring whether it is at church or on the blog. You always sharpen me.

      As I look over your post, one thing stands out to me that needs to be reubbted. I do not think that the bible is on your side when you say, “Rather than trying to decide whether someone is regenerate we should go by whether they claim to be a Christian. If they do we should call them to godly living, to holiness.”

      One of the main issues we come up to when you state something like this is the communion of the church. The nerve that you are hitting on is what Jeremy hinted at when he suggested that the Lord’s table has been inadequately fenced for the past century. One of the primary purposes of church membership is to draw distinctions between believers and non-believers. The job of the eldership is to keep the communion pure by keeping the wolves out. While they cannot see hearts as God does, they are required to, in Jeremy’s words, call it as they see it. Even our own statement of faith says that the local church consists of a company of believers who have been baptized on a, “CREDIBLE profession of faith.” This language assumes that people are not baptized/incorporated into membership simply based on a confession. By adding the word “credible,” the statement affirms that something is examined other than a bare confession. The confession has to be CREDIBLE. And the way in which scripture seems to suggest whether a confession is credible is by the fruit that one bears.

      Further, it is a total misnomer to state that we are to be fruit inspectors but not draw a general conclusion about the nature of the person producing the fruit. What would be the point of judging fruit if you were not called to make some conclusion about the heart underlying said fruit?

      Yet more than anything, your argument does not stand up to the very texts I used to argue my point. Let’s look back at Matthew 7. Jesus starts by saying, “You will recognize them…” He does not say he will recognize them but “you will recognize them.” This is important lest we think that only the sinless Christ can judge the quality of the trees that produce the fruit. While he is the only one who can judge with 100% accuracy, we are called to make a conclusion about the fruit and subsequently to deduce something about the nature of the tree based on those conclusions. Jesus says in the text that healthy trees do not bear bad fruit. Jesus makes an explict connection between fruit and the nature of the peson producing the fruit. In Luke 6:44 Jesus says, “each tree is known by its fruit.” Jesus says that the tree is known! Not just the fruit! I simply can’t see how your argument holds up under the weight of the actual text.

      I would also submit that we can trust in “automatic” sanctification. I would submit that based on all the texts that I argued from in the article. This does not mean perfect sanctification but it does mean that sanctification, no matter how slow, is constantly taking place. Sure we are called to stir up one another to love and good deeds. That would certainly further the sanctification process but it is not as though if man fails in his actions to do so, that suddenly we cease to be sanctified. We are being sanctified because God ordains such not becuase it depends on our actions (see the bottom portion of my reply to Jeremy).

      Next, I am not debating that young men need to be instructed in using time wisely, being responsible etc. I am simply debating whether the picture that Driscoll, Mohler and others paint is as grim as they have suggested. I am further arguing that their pictures of regenerate men in the church are inaccurate if we take the Bible on its own terms.

      In close I pose the same question/challenge that I gave to Jeremy: When you say that it is often times impossible to tell the difference between men in the church and in the world, where do you get this information from? Is it a study? And if it is a study, does it use theologically acceptable parameters to reach its conclusions?

      I love talking my friend. Keep reading, interacting and rebutting me as we go along. I look forward to talking more on the subject.

      -Ryan

      1. Jeremy Goad

        Ryan,
        Good responses, man. I’m diggin’ your thoughtfulness and your attention to Scripture. I’m even seeing a glimmer of nuance that was previously hidden and I’m into that as well.

        I’m a bit with Dave on this one point though, if someone professes Christianity, they should be called to live like it or fenced (and that’s the missing part of this equation, really). However, I still think there can be overarching weaknesses within a body of believers in a certain time and/or place that need to be called to account for a specific sin that may not be true of a body of believers in a different time and/or place. Manhood being the one on the table at this point.

        Granted, you said the onus is on the speaker to make it readily clear that the problem exists in the church and, thus, should be dealt with. In Rhetoric this is a huge part of establishing both ethos and pathos. Perhaps they haven’t done that enough. However, if a problem seems obvious to both the speaker and hearer (and based on the ever-growing popularity of the Biblical Manhood movement, I think it is), then the speaker wouldn’t have to spend much time in laying out the problem.

        I guess I’m saying you can’t have it both ways. You agreed with me that the church has suffered in the area of biblical accountability when it comes to the table, but in these areas when the pastors/theologians are trying to address a sin that they see prevalent with in the body either singular or catholic (and apparently the audience agrees), you are in the minority camp saying (I’m putting words in your mouth here), “This isn’t really a problem for the sheep, but for the goats.” If they don’t call it out, there isn’t going to be any resulting church discipline. I’m not saying that is Driscoll or Mohler’s intention. Neither of them are Doug Wilson or RC Jr. But it is at least OUR hope that sin is addressed for the unity and edification of the body.

        So, kind of back to one of my original questions, does the fact that the world recognizes the same problem in its own kind negate the fact that these guys have seen it in their own kind. I’m just throwing this out there for at least Mohler’s sake, having read and listened to a lot of his stuff (Driscoll has never interested me much): I think that guy is probably pretty good at discerning sheep from goats.

        Ultimately it comes back to Rhetoric. Mohler’s audience (and I guess Driscoll, but I’m less familiar), and certainly Piper’s audience (he after all started an Institue on the subject), oh, and dozens of other fairly well respected men of the cloth, have been convince that Biblical Manhood is an issue worth tackling as have a significant number of their hearers. So the onus really isn’t on them when it comes to establishing ethos and pathos. They’ve done their rhetorical jobs.

        The reason people (myself included) were asking data from you was to help you establish your argument, one from the outside that is going against the grain. Now, I don’t really care about the data that much, but it could help you further your case. I am intrigued, and sincere (literally, “without wax” which is a great etymology study, by the way) enough to want to be swayed by your case, but you’ve got the burden of proof.

        I really mean this when I say, “I hope this helps.” I don’t want to be a clanging cymbal here. If I get to be anything but someone that can help you clarify things a bit more, feel free to email me and tell me to shut up. I really find this engaging and fun!

        Good work, brother. Keep it up!

  7. Ryan, I am slightly envious of the fact that your post is getting so many comments.

  8. Your type is so exclusive when compared with several others. Thanks for publishing if you possess the chance,Guess I’ll just make this bookmarked.two

  9. andrew

    Hey Ryan,

    Just a couple thoughts on ur convo with Dave Hoos.

    Before I get to that though I would like to say that though I’m not familiar with Molars specific version of biblical manhood, I do believe that the biblical manhood movement that is championed by Driscol could probably use a harsher criticism than even you are giving it. Driscols version of “biblical manhood” seems to me to be overly macho (he has publicly ridiculed worship leaders who wear skinny jeans calling their manhood into question). I’ve also seen him make the comment that biblical manhood requires a man to work outside the home to support his family. He has said that stay at home dads are living in sin based on an incredibly poor interpretation of a verse that commands sons to take care of their widdowed mothers. His explanation of what men should be often seems to alienate the fringe and embolden the cocky. But before I go off on a complete rant let me get back to what I actually want to reply to.

    I think your interpretation of Matt 7 is a little more cut and dry than the text allows for. The statement “you will recognize them by their frui”t does not give us license to distinguish between or judge anyone. Verse 1 clears up that question fairly clearly. “Judge not, that you be not judged”. And though the statement about good trees bearing good fruit seems to be self explanatory, it is followed in verse 21 by an example of a complete and total exception to the rule. It seems that there will be a plethora of those that claim Christ and even have seemingly legitimate fruit that are in fact not regenerate.

    I think it’s overly simplistic to believe that we can or should try to distinguish between those who are justified and those who are not. (How much good fruit is needed for a person to be considered a good tree?) This type of distinction pushes people away from the flock rather than pulling them into it. On a practical level seeing people as people rather than seeing them as saved or not saved could actually help foster an environment of love and acceptance (the type of environment that Jesus fostered by hanging out with Pharisees, tax collector, and prostitutes) in our churches rather than an environment of exclusivism.

    I also struggle with the idea of “automatic sanctification”. I agree that God immediately starts in working on our hearts upon conversion but the fruit of that labor may go unseen for a great deal of time. As leaders in the church we must acknowledge this process and rather than distinguish people based on their fruits we should encourage all people to grow, regardless of where they are now. Sometimes those that seem to be wolves are merely sheep with fangs. They need a shepherd and a flock just as much if not more than the fangless sheep.

    I love the blog so far, keep up the good work!

  10. […] cultural analysis when applying it to the Church (For the relevant posts in the 6-part series: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6).  I do not intend here to pick up the discussion further, or to write multiple […]

Leave a Reply to Jeremy Goad Cancel reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *