John Anthony Dunne: All right.
John Anthony Dunne: Well, Professor Mccaskill, thanks so much for joining us.
Grant Macaskill: sure.
John Anthony Dunne: Well, we're really excited to chat with you about your book, autism and the church, and as we begin, we'd love to hear a bit about. You know what you're setting out to do in that book. But also why you decided to to write it.
Grant Macaskill: Hmm.
Grant Macaskill: So
Grant Macaskill: probably the big piece of context for for the book that is the most important thing to raise is that i'm autistic. So I was only diagnosed with autism after writing the book
Grant Macaskill: that have been aware of it for much longer. So that's the big context. And in many ways the big motivation for writing the book.
Grant Macaskill: Like many people, particularly perhaps many people of my age.
Grant Macaskill: I was very late diagnosed.
Grant Macaskill: and that reflects some changes in the way that autism is conceived, as well as in some changes in the awareness of autism.
Grant Macaskill: But all of that factored into the book. So I had a growing awareness for a long time that I was artistic.
Grant Macaskill: and therefore a growing interest in what it might mean to read the Bible in relation to autism and to think about theology in relation to autism.
Grant Macaskill: and one of the big factors that drove. That was that where I was seeing either popular or academic theological engagement with autism.
Grant Macaskill: It often presumed autism to be a negative thing. so it often operated with accounts of autism that focused on deficiency
Grant Macaskill: or deviation from a particular standard.
Grant Macaskill: or even the the really went into much worse places than that.
Grant Macaskill: So really, what was driving me was that I wanted to develop approaches to autism, which
Grant Macaskill: started with the presumption that autism is a good thing and not a bad thing. and the explore the ways in which the Bible might constructively resource
Grant Macaskill: theologies of autism that approaches a good thing.
Grant Macaskill: but also that might challenge readings of the Bible that are used in service of a very negative representation of autism.
Grant Macaskill: so trying to overcome and to challenge some of those which is a balance of thinking about how the Bible can be interpreted
Grant Macaskill: for autistic people and biotistic people. but also of thinking about how the Bible might
Grant Macaskill: be used in appropriately to describe autistic people. So there there were a range of challenges that contextualized the book, and I will say that one of the big factors in writing the book was that
Grant Macaskill: although I've been thinking about this for a long time. Once I made the move to Aberdeen
Grant Macaskill: to the University of Aberdeen. I was surrounded by a number of other colleagues, who were also thinking of either about autism or about related issues from a theological perspective. So it was a good contextual opportunity
Grant Macaskill: to begin to pursue that.
Madison Pierce: I wonder? Thank you, Grant. I appreciate that introduction. I wonder if you could say a little bit more about some of the
Madison Pierce: content of what you outlined in the book. So the ways that the Bible does speak to the experience of those with autism or talks about autism. However, you want to frame that.
Grant Macaskill: Yeah. So part of it was about resisting. In the first place, what I felt where inappropriate uses of the Bible in relation to autism.
Grant Macaskill: Now I need, I think, to be a little bit careful in describing these.
Grant Macaskill: partly because I think some of them might be sensitive topics for some listeners, but partly also, I think, because in some of the cases I guess I'm still working through some of the issues myself
Grant Macaskill: in terms of how we think about them. So
Grant Macaskill: one of those problematic approaches was
Grant Macaskill: the the tendency to see autism represented in some of the narratives or stories, or to identify autism as
Grant Macaskill: with some of the phenomena seen in Biblical stories. I see guys. Can we start this section again and and we do it. Is that okay?
Grant Macaskill: Okay? Sorry, I'm. Just. I was conscious that I was going to start with something that's
Grant Macaskill: big and dramatic, and it's probably actually best not to start there.
Grant Macaskill: So could you quickly ask the question again, Madison.
Madison Pierce: Thank you so much, Grant. I really appreciate that introduction. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about the content that you outline in the book, and some of the ways that the Bible does speak to the experience of the experiences of those with the autism, or you know just about autism more broadly.
Madison Pierce: However, you want to frame that.
Grant Macaskill: Yeah.
Grant Macaskill: So there were a combination of things that
Grant Macaskill: I was trying to trace through in the book in in terms of how the Bible is used, and one of the
Grant Macaskill: I think one of the crucial starting points
Grant Macaskill: was to think about the way in which the Bible is often
Grant Macaskill: tacitly or implicitly
Grant Macaskill: read through
Grant Macaskill: the read through the lens of
Grant Macaskill: a kind of ableist approach.
Grant Macaskill: So one of the Probably one of the themes that's come up a few times in your podcast is is that people tend to pursue, presume that there is a sort of neutral way to read the Bible.
Grant Macaskill: That is just about interpreting the detail that's there, and figuring out what it says. and often unaware of the extent to which well they consider what we consider often
Grant Macaskill: to be of our new children of the Bible, actually reflects a lot of presumptions from our own experience.
Grant Macaskill: and that experience might be of being male or of being white.
Grant Macaskill: or it might be of being able-bodied in the sense that society would define able-bodied
Grant Macaskill: or conforming to a particular neurotype
Grant Macaskill: that society would understand to be neurotypical.
Grant Macaskill: And that's language that's increasingly become drawn into the conversations about autism. So one of the big shifts in the conversation about autism is that actually artistic people and many of the autism advocacy advocacy groups
Grant Macaskill: have tried to change the way that autism is spoken about to move away from accounts of deficiency or deviation from a putative normality, and i'm doing scarecoats around that which listeners won't See but
Grant Macaskill: a putative normality and to move towards an account of neurodiversity.
Grant Macaskill: We're society is made up.
Grant Macaskill: The world is made up of people with different kinds of minds.
Grant Macaskill: different kinds of wiring in those minds and different ways that those minds and that wiring expresses itself. Now the crucial thing with the book is to recognise that there's a danger
Grant Macaskill: that the majority of people
Grant Macaskill: whose minds are wired a particular way
Grant Macaskill: presume that the way their their brains are wired is the standard for normality, and that everyone else should conform to that. And the way that the Bible is read is often refracted through that.
Grant Macaskill: So people who don't conform to that
Grant Macaskill: who interact socially in ways that differ from the way that normal people again put scarecrow around the word normal, the way that the supposedly normal people are interact with each other.
Grant Macaskill: They're often marginalized and are treated as different as odd as eccentric.
Grant Macaskill: So part of it is actually about destabilizing that I mean 1 30 easy example. That's not just about autism
Grant Macaskill: is the way that
Grant Macaskill: one very easy illustration of that. It's not just about autism.
Grant Macaskill: but the bears on autism is the way that extra hurts
Grant Macaskill: will tend to identify good, healthy, social interaction
Grant Macaskill: with a particular kind of int of extroverted interaction. So you feel like your church is social. Life is healthy if everyone's spending lots of time together in busy rooms. If there's lots of people crowded into spaces, if there's an energy, and so on.
Grant Macaskill: And if you're an introvert, that's just a nightmare scenario that you want to to stay away from.
Grant Macaskill: There's an equivalent point. I think, that
Grant Macaskill: can be extended from that to other kinds of new root of virgins or other.
Grant Macaskill: it
Grant Macaskill: elements of neurodiversity, which is that if if that's not you, then those environments can be very difficult. So part of it is about challenging a a way of thinking about
Grant Macaskill: faithful life and about faithful community. The centers on some idea of the normality of a particular kind of person.
Grant Macaskill: and it recognizes there might be other kind of people. So a big, constructive part of what the book is doing is actually looking at some of the models of diversity. and some of the models of the reevaluation of people
Grant Macaskill: that are developed within the Bible, and particularly within the New Testament. including some of the ways in which those models often challenge the pervasive force of social standards.
Grant Macaskill: So one of the the expressions that sometimes used in disability research, but also in autism. Research
Grant Macaskill: is the expression, the Tyne of normalcy. the way that a particular kind of identified.
Grant Macaskill: normality becomes the model to which everyone is expected to conform, and also the the model
Grant Macaskill: that's used to effectively gauge the measure and the worth of people. So do we think someone's valuable to our church? Are we excited? If someone starts coming to our church
Grant Macaskill: there's a good chance that that you might be more excited if the person is outgoing extra
Grant Macaskill: able to take part in particular kinds of activities that your church really celebrates, and if they don't fit that pattern
Grant Macaskill: you might not value in it quite the same way. So a big part of what the book is doing is trying to disrupt and challenge that way of thinking. Now there there are also
Grant Macaskill: strands in the book that are intended to challenge what I would regard as problematic ways of thinking
Grant Macaskill: about autism using elements of Scripture.
Grant Macaskill: One of those that i'm. Still kind of
Grant Macaskill: open minded about and working through is the question of whether there's value in trying to
Grant Macaskill: identify autistic characters in the Bible. In the book I express I feel a bit of nervousness about that.
Grant Macaskill: and my reason for that is not because I don't think there were artistic characters in the Bible that statistically I think it's pretty certain that there would have been.
Grant Macaskill: but i'm not sure that the Bible
Grant Macaskill: is seeking to give you what you need to know in order to decide that someone is autistic or not. You know. I'm. I'm not sure that that the Biblical narratives are necessarily interested in those elements of the narrative, or those elements of the characterization
Grant Macaskill: i'm open to being challenged on that. But I i'm just
Grant Macaskill: weary that that there can be a danger of abusing what the narrative is seeking to do.
Grant Macaskill: The other is that I think there are some unfortunate examples
Grant Macaskill: of people moving too quickly to actually can I see this bit again?
Grant Macaskill: Yep.
Grant Macaskill: So the other example, I think, comes with a little bit of a trigger warning.
Grant Macaskill: because this involves some fairly disturbing identifications of autism.
Grant Macaskill: The do occur in Christian communities, and actually occur in other religious communities. which is where some of the phenomena that can be associated with autism
Grant Macaskill: are identified with demon possession. and that's an example where people will read the various accounts of demon possession, and see some of the phenomena associated, particularly the
Grant Macaskill: phenomena of.
Grant Macaskill: or violent behavior, or or
Grant Macaskill: apparently self destructive behavior.
Grant Macaskill: And we'll map that on to popular perceptions of what autism is, and will decide that what they regard as a sudden explosion
Grant Macaskill: in the frequency of autism is actually a surge in demonic activity.
Grant Macaskill: and I've literally come across websites that represent that view.
Grant Macaskill: and more disturbingly have seen on those websites comments from parents who are talking about their children, using that kind of language. So
Grant Macaskill: I don't want to suggest. I don't want to be very dramatic about that, and to suggest that it's. It's
Grant Macaskill: especially widespread or especially common, but it is out there.
Grant Macaskill: and it's something that again, I think needs to be carefully challenged.
Madison Pierce: Thank you, Grant. I think you're absolutely right, and I can see where those appeals to the Biblical narratives really relies significantly on on various stereotypes of
Madison Pierce: those who are not considered neurotypical. And and you know ironically doesn't, deal with the full spectrum of those who would be identified with Asd.
Madison Pierce: I wonder if I can follow up because one of the threads that I heard in your answer was about these sort of normative ways of interpreting, and that struck me, being familiar with some of your other work, that this is probably one of the intersections that, having worked on theological interpretation
Madison Pierce: that this work on another kind of normative reading is connected, would you, I mean I could be wrong. But i'd love to hear you talk about how this does intersect with what you've done and the logical interpretation of your other work.
Grant Macaskill: Yeah, there. There's a really interesting connection between these 2 comments. And actually it came up at a at a conference I was involved in a few years ago, or a symposium
Grant Macaskill: with a number of people representing various
Grant Macaskill: disabilities
Grant Macaskill: and groups working with disabilities, and also a number of people representing different neurot of urgent groupings.
Grant Macaskill: And it was interesting because I used the language of
Grant Macaskill: the normative rule of Scripture
Grant Macaskill: with the kinds of theological associations it will typically have, and has typically had through the the centuries of the Church.
Grant Macaskill: and it was interesting that language that I would generally have regarded as as fairly well accepted, fairly positive language.
Grant Macaskill: triggered negative reactions in one or 2 of the other people there, precisely because for them that the core part of the world of Norm
Grant Macaskill: had been associated with some experience of what I described earlier as the Titan of Normalcy.
Grant Macaskill: So because so many people who are either neuro, divergent, or bio divergent in the sense of having some kind of disability.
Grant Macaskill: So many of them, I think, are very sensitive to the extent to which Ableism
Grant Macaskill: norms shapes the the way that we talk about things. So when you start to talk about a positive
Grant Macaskill: normativity or a positive
Grant Macaskill: normative role for Scripture, that's actually quite a difficult thing for some people to to line up.
Grant Macaskill: I think in some ways
Grant Macaskill: the key point for me that I think I would use to to constructively lean into that issue is that there's a there's a kind of presumptive or unwitting
Grant Macaskill: normalizing or normative
Grant Macaskill: process that takes place when people, without realizing it, without recognizing it.
Grant Macaskill: buy into a a bunch of standards
Grant Macaskill: that need to be challenged and disrupted.
Grant Macaskill: And actually we all do that all the time in different ways. None of us really is exempt from it.
Grant Macaskill: and it's built into our very language. So some of the ways in which we will utilize
Grant Macaskill: what for us are just figures of speech. But actually, once you once you stop and think about them, really are
Grant Macaskill: negative representations, or draw up on negative representations of disabilities. So whether it's talking about someone as spiritually blind
Grant Macaskill: or a spiritually deaf.
Grant Macaskill: or actually, as is the case with some work using autism to talk about people who are
Grant Macaskill: deficient in the relationship with God and with other people as spiritually autistic.
Grant Macaskill: I mean, that's quite a difficult thing to live with. If you're artistic, because essentially you're becoming the basis for a metaphor
Grant Macaskill: that is negative.
Grant Macaskill: So what it highlights is the extent to which we we can often buy into or participate in
Grant Macaskill: normalizing ways of thinking without realizing it. And one of the crucial differences, then, is that ways of thinking about
Grant Macaskill: Scripture as playing a a normative role
Grant Macaskill: are actually about something that is conscious and deliberative
Grant Macaskill: that might challenge these to it.
Grant Macaskill: presumptive, almost instinctive ways of thinking. which is, you know, to put it in. In.
Grant Macaskill: To put it, I think, in in Biblical terms, it would be about recognizing what it means to listen to the word.
Grant Macaskill: and not merely to trust in the flesh to to trust in our our natural ways of judging people.
Grant Macaskill: At the same time, I think it's important that the way that Scripture
Grant Macaskill: classically is understood to norm. Theology
Grant Macaskill: is not the same way that many people today, particularly with an Evangelicalism.
Grant Macaskill: We'll think about the authority of Scripture. So it doesn't just involve reading a text extracting its meaning, and then applying that text.
Grant Macaskill: it involves the careful activity of interpretation. and recognizing
Grant Macaskill: that
Grant Macaskill: if if you're not careful in that active interpretation, and of lining your interpretation up with with the Gospel. that you're in danger of actually implementing some of those nasty instincts
Grant Macaskill: precisely in your interpretation.
Grant Macaskill: So you read the Bible. You extract a meeting.
Grant Macaskill: and then you talk about autistic people as if they're lesser, or you talk about other people as if they're lesser.
Grant Macaskill: So I don't know if that gets if what you're
Grant Macaskill: what you were asking about.
Madison Pierce: Yeah, absolutely, i'll make sure that everyone else can ask questions after this, but I also was thinking about the
Madison Pierce: the ways that some of your work, and this is the case and other work on theological interpretation as well text about trying to decenter. You know kind of white male perspectives and the ways that those have also been normative. And so I was thinking of
Madison Pierce: normative in a negative sense and theological interpretation. But I really appreciate the the reminder that you know that that word does have these really positive connotations when you otherwise that you've highlighted here. So thank you, Grant
Grant Macaskill: it's it's an interesting point, if it if I can comment, I mean what I think one of the interesting points
Grant Macaskill: is the the the driving
Grant Macaskill: significance of the white male interpretation.
Grant Macaskill: I mean. I come from a linguistic minority
Grant Macaskill: which I think changes the way that I I think about a lot of things.
Grant Macaskill: and that's it's both a linguistic and a geographical minority, as well as belonging to a neural minority, if you like. So all of these things affect the way that I think about things.
Grant Macaskill: But I think what's interesting is that if you're not aware of some of these dynamics you can far too easily
Grant Macaskill: slip into a particular interpretation of the text
Grant Macaskill: then being labeled as
Grant Macaskill: neutral. and its content is then labeled as Biblical. So it's an interesting thing that you you know the word Biblical. If you. if you look at its usage in literature.
Grant Macaskill: there's a little. It's it's barely used until the end of the nineteenth century, and then there's a blit in its use. and then around about 1,979, 1,980. It suddenly takes an upswing
Grant Macaskill: and starts to be used everywhere that there's just a massive growth. Now there's probably a lot of explanations for that, and one is probably simply the growth of some publishing movements
Grant Macaskill: and the dissemination of their work which which affects the the incidence of work of words.
Grant Macaskill: But I think there's also something cautionary there
Grant Macaskill: about whether we throw a word around pretty easily and pretty quickly, and with a particular authority attached to it.
Grant Macaskill: and in doing so really short circuit.
Grant Macaskill: some important stages of interpretation and theological reflection that are involved in in actually using the Bible Well. that's distinct from
Grant Macaskill: using the Bible badly.
Sydney Tooth: And can I make this into more thinking about how the church relates to those with autism and and just experiences there. That's that's a significant portion of the book that I found really helpful
Sydney Tooth: just thinking about, and I have a few questions about it. But anyone else can jump in at any point.
Sydney Tooth: The first one I wanted to ask about is I was reading it, rereading the first chapter today. I was just thinking about.
Sydney Tooth: I think
Sydney Tooth: awareness of autism is very thankfully grown, and and you helpfully lay out a lot of the history
Sydney Tooth: of it.
Sydney Tooth: But sorry I'm losing my train of thought.
Sydney Tooth: you really hopefully lay out the history of research on autism, and and how that's changed, and how how the spectrum, the awareness of the spectrum has grown, and I think from a
Sydney Tooth: I don't know maybe a an attempt to be more aware. I've noticed, and I wonder if anyone else has noticed this, this trend of people wanting to almost say overall on the spectrum, or getting away from this
Sydney Tooth: normal, we're. We're all different sort of view, which I think is really problematic in a lot of ways. But it raised for me the question, If just thinking about how churches, how can churches communicate well and and tract well without othering those who are autistic
Sydney Tooth: and but also without downplaying the real differences that there are among us.
Grant Macaskill: Yeah.
Grant Macaskill: yeah, that that's a. That's a that's a great question.
Grant Macaskill: Maybe the first thing i'll see is that
Grant Macaskill: even since I wrote the book. both advocacy, activity.
Grant Macaskill: and research activity around autism have moved on significantly
Grant Macaskill: to the extent that I I would really love to get another edition of the book out reasonably, quickly.
Grant Macaskill: in order to reflect some of that. So there have been changes in the kind of language
Grant Macaskill: preferences. The research has identified a monotistic people.
Grant Macaskill: and there have also been
Grant Macaskill: shifts in the way that different aspects of artistic experience are are understood.
Grant Macaskill: and I think probably one of the key things to say on the back of that is that
Grant Macaskill: the the downside of autism awareness here is an interesting point.
Grant Macaskill: Most statistic people dread autism, awareness, day or autism, awareness month. I mean. You just dread it.
Grant Macaskill: because you know that for for a period of time social media and and the general media are going to be flooded
Grant Macaskill: with accounts of autism that are usually from the perspective of nonetheless non-autistic people
Grant Macaskill: trying to be very understanding about autism. and it can still continue to buy into negative representations of autism to to deficiency accounts.
Grant Macaskill: It can still presume medical model type accounts, or it can buy into the kind of language preferences
Grant Macaskill: that have been promoted by academic writing.
Grant Macaskill: but not actually by by artistic people themselves. So, at least in English speaking circles. Most statistic people prefer the construction
Grant Macaskill: autistic person. so they prefer like density first language
Grant Macaskill: rather than par some first language.
Grant Macaskill: And there's some good research that that highlights that, and and explains why. But I think one of the key points is to be aware that
Grant Macaskill: the material that's out there for autism. Awareness really is a mixed bag.
Grant Macaskill: and probably reflects in many cases some outdated understandings of autism and some problematic understandings of autism.
Grant Macaskill: and to be aware that there's there's a growing amount of material and an an ever growing amount of material that's available that is actually developed and land by artistic people themselves.
Grant Macaskill: So one of the key things for autism awareness, I think, is is to look for material that's written by artistic people, or it's produced by artistic people.
Grant Macaskill: There was a recent documentary, a set of documentaries in the Uk called inside out artistic minds which was fronted by Chris Packham, who is an artistic.
Grant Macaskill: a scientist in the Uk. And they were really wonderfully received by the autistic community in general
Grant Macaskill: because they were autism led, and because they they reflected a really authentic experience with autism.
Grant Macaskill: So I think, look for the autistic lead material.
Grant Macaskill: Try to stay aware of some of the recent stuff. 1 one way to do that, but also one way. One context, where you need to be careful is through social media.
Grant Macaskill: Where there's there's a lot of representation of autistic viewpoint by artistic people
Grant Macaskill: for you very quickly encounter. There are the differences.
Grant Macaskill: and often quite competitive differences. So so that's an area where you have to be careful. But you could also find some really wonderful stuff on there.
Grant Macaskill: Sorry, certainly. I'm not sure if that
Grant Macaskill: has answered what you asked to begin with, or if you need to see more?
Sydney Tooth: No, that's great. I I have a follow up. If that's okay, i'm thinking more specifically about how churches can can
Sydney Tooth: think about the needs of everyone.
Sydney Tooth: autistic people and and neurotypical and just everything.
Sydney Tooth: I think one thing I've been thinking about so our church recently started having the children in during the entire service, and
Sydney Tooth: and that I mean in some ways it almost makes church more inclusive in the sense that it's loud and noisy, and
Sydney Tooth: alright.
Sydney Tooth: it in some ways. It's really really nice and other ways. I imagine that's really really difficult for a lot of people. It's hard to sometimes hear the sermon it's.
Sydney Tooth: It just is loud and noisy, and I I was just thinking about the tension in that about for.
Sydney Tooth: and some autistic people who are nonverbal, or would have what would be class to square quotes disruptive behavior that might actually make it a more helpful environment. But then, for those who have sensory
Sydney Tooth: sound in particular issues that might actually be an awful environment. And so it's just about the tension of that, and and how to navigate those sorts of things. Well, as a church leader, as a church family.
Grant Macaskill: Yeah, I mean, I I don't think there's any
Grant Macaskill: simple answer to that. I should say that there are some useful guidelines that have been prepared
Grant Macaskill: that are available online as being prepared by autistic people for church leaders.
Grant Macaskill: So there's there's some material that it was prepared by Oxford diocese by a well known artistic
Grant Macaskill: advocate called on them, and they're really useful. They're they're really good, but they are quite context specific to To an Anglican context
Grant Macaskill: one core.
Grant Macaskill: one core part of the answer has to be, the
Grant Macaskill: no situation
can become, can really become the template. For every situation.
Grant Macaskill: every artistic person is different in terms of their sensory issues.
Grant Macaskill: and also some of their social
Grant Macaskill: particularities.
Grant Macaskill: and every church is different in terms of of how it runs things.
Grant Macaskill: It is worth saying that I think what some of these issues flag up is the extent to which our model of service is built around a particular account of normalcy again.
Grant Macaskill: So it it presumes that people will interact with the service in a particular way. and just being open to that, and being open to the possibility that there might be different ways of doing. Church.
Grant Macaskill: I think, is really important
Grant Macaskill: on a personal note. I will say that I actually found Lockdown to be just
Grant Macaskill: wonderful.
Grant Macaskill: because because I I was able to
Grant Macaskill: participate in services from the home environment, which is a much more controlled environment as far as sensory things is concerned.
Grant Macaskill: and the fact that the fact that all of a sudden
Grant Macaskill: churches moved to an online arrangement
Grant Macaskill: made made that I can use the language again, actually normalize that in a really interesting way, it made it less marginalizing
Grant Macaskill: to rely on that.
Grant Macaskill: But I think it's where one of the key things that any church needs to do is to ask its people
Grant Macaskill: repeatedly, constantly.
Grant Macaskill: Are there particular things that you need to be different here
Grant Macaskill: which which might come down to some of the issues you've talked about in terms of the way that the service is run.
Grant Macaskill: It might come down to the kind of handsome
Grant Macaskill: you have in the bathrooms, because for some people that might be triggering
Grant Macaskill: for other people. You pay your public address System might be the triggering thing
Grant Macaskill: because of the noise for others. It might just be the chaos of you know, of the activities. The only way, you know is by talking to people
Grant Macaskill: and by asking them, and also, I think, by creating a culture where people can share
Grant Macaskill: their sense of of whether they feel accommodated.
Grant Macaskill: And I want to say that, you know, I think theologically, we call that love.
Grant Macaskill: and that actually our practices are often not particularly loving. They're often much more concerned by maintaining a certain kind of
Grant Macaskill: and pattern of worship than they are with thinking about whether
Grant Macaskill: what is embodied in that pattern might actually be embodied in a slightly different way. So, for example, one of my colleagues at the center for autism theology. Leon Ben Oman
Grant Macaskill: has been working with an intentional
Grant Macaskill: community in Singapore
Grant Macaskill: that is centered around a school for autistic children. and their worship is constructed in a way that accommodates
Grant Macaskill: the
Grant Macaskill: the particular characteristics of the children that were involved in that school effectively. It's an Anglican liturgy.
Grant Macaskill: but it's elements are done in a way that can accommodate the disruptive behavior.
Grant Macaskill: the or what might be perceived to be disruptive behavior
Grant Macaskill: from some of the children
Grant Macaskill: that takes care around sensory elements to make sure that the sensory environment is
Grant Macaskill: is addressed.
Grant Macaskill: There are ways, I think, that it can be done without jeopardizing what we consider to be essential to worship, but it involves talking to people, and it involves creating an environment where the needs of the community
Grant Macaskill: are taken into account, and I think one of the crucial things is that what I think we need to be very careful with
Grant Macaskill: is any approach to the solution that imposes new ways of marginalizing.
Grant Macaskill: So if your approach to the solution is to create a space where your neurod of urgent people go and do their own thing away from everyone else.
Grant Macaskill: the
Grant Macaskill: could potentially at least become the basis for a new sort of marginalization. So
Sydney Tooth: it's really helpful. Grant. Thank you so much for that
Sydney Tooth: I will. Oh, sorry! Go ahead.
Grant Macaskill: No, I might just say you know it. It's worth. I think it's worth saying that these are also issues that need to be considered
Grant Macaskill: holistically. You know, for example, if you have a noisy environment
Grant Macaskill: because of the way that children are behaving in the environment. it's possible that that's only problematic because of the surface areas that you have in your church building
Grant Macaskill: because of the space you're using.
Grant Macaskill: because you've got a lot of reflective surfaces. So sometimes the issues can actually be addressed by thinking about the environment
Grant Macaskill: and asking whether the environment you're in and and the way that people access that environment whether that can be changed. I mentioned earlier that for me
Grant Macaskill: the lockdown experience of accessing church via a computer screen was actually wonderful because it helped to address so many issues and even thinking about
Grant Macaskill: normalizing hybrid access to services. so that people are part of the service without necessarily being in a difficult environment.
Grant Macaskill: That might be a solution for some for some people.
Grant Macaskill: But I do think that thinking about it holistically, so that we take the whole environment into account
Grant Macaskill: can really help with some of these issues.
Sydney Tooth: Yeah, that's great. And I think exactly as you said it's, it's all an expression of love is, how how are we loving every person
Sydney Tooth: here? Well. I will. I off on questions now, and let anyone else jump in at this point.
Kris Song: Hi! Grant
Kris Song: it's really good to see you. I wanted to jump back to the earlier point that you were making about Scripture
Kris Song: modes of reading Scripture as it applies to autism. You had made a a brief comment about modes of of applying Scripture to the subject of autism.
Kris Song: you know, in in sort of
Kris Song: bad readings or
Kris Song: less less ideal readings, and I was hoping that we could get a little bit more particular about, especially for our listeners, what might be some examples that you've encountered.
Kris Song: whether in social media, or you know, out in the wild
Kris Song: of of folks that want to want to apply Scripture to the subject of autism or to autistic people that
Kris Song: I think stand in need of a lot of correction.
Kris Song: Maybe we start there just on on on your thoughts about that. And then maybe after that we could pivot to more helpful suggestions or strategies of of reading Scripture.
Grant Macaskill: Yeah, yeah.
Grant Macaskill: So i'll start with an academic example which might not, in a sense, be quite what you're asking about. But it's it's maybe useful to mention it.
Grant Macaskill: One of the things that prompted me to get involved in this area of research was that I was seeing
Grant Macaskill: some serious academic theological work in autism
Grant Macaskill: that was using off to zoom
Grant Macaskill: as an essentially negative thing. So it it was presuming the medical understanding of autism
Grant Macaskill: which will typically so. We talk about the medical model of autism which will typically use this language of deficiency or deviation. of a lack of certain qualities or characteristics that are perceived to be normal.
Grant Macaskill: and particularly we'll label these as either theory of mind or as empathy.
Grant Macaskill: and often what's meant by that is is the ability to pick up on non-bearable communicative queues from other people. So
Grant Macaskill: autistic people will often struggle with
Grant Macaskill: either non-verbal
Grant Macaskill: communication from other people. or with
Grant Macaskill: or with acts of communication with, the the
Grant Macaskill: violate the plain sense of the words being spoken to irony or sarcasm. Now, interestingly, there's been some research that highlights that.
Grant Macaskill: although that's true that autistic people are also very good at reading the nonverbal queues and communication of other autistic people. and the interestingly neurotypical people are very bad at reading that.
Grant Macaskill: So one of the pieces of of language that's being spoken about, or this being used now.
Grant Macaskill: is there? There's a kind of double empathy
Grant Macaskill: there, there, there's a diverse way of being able to read the communication of of other people. I don't like using the language of empathy for any of this.
Grant Macaskill: because I think empathy is.
Grant Macaskill: Here's a kind of emergent state that comes from a combination of a number of different factors, and I don't think you can reduce it
Grant Macaskill: to just the ability to read these acts of non variable communication
Grant Macaskill: and one of the problems.
Grant Macaskill: One of the problems with all of this, and this takes us to the bad. Theology
Grant Macaskill: is that because autistic people We're labeled within the medical model as deficient in empathy or deficient in theory of mind
Grant Macaskill: that they be. They were used by these theological accounts
Grant Macaskill: as examples of a kind of efficient humanity. a humanity that's not quite optimal.
Grant Macaskill: So hence the application of speaking about people who don't relate to each other, or Don't relate to God optimally, as spiritually autistic.
Grant Macaskill: which I think is is really awful language. So part of the
Grant Macaskill: part of what I was pushing against.
Grant Macaskill: because what was being done with that was using that category to then look at. to, to then function as an interpretive lens for the way that people interacted with each other
Grant Macaskill: in Scripture. I felt that needed to be challenged, because again it was imposing a certain kind of
Grant Macaskill: ableism onto the interactions between characters and Scripture that I felt uncomfortable about. So that's that, I think is one example. It's a very academic example. and you only want to cut that from your
Grant Macaskill: that from your shoe.
Grant Macaskill: Another example, I think, is to quickly trying to identify particular characters as autistic. I understand why people want to do that, and there there's a certain sense in which I think it's very.
Grant Macaskill: It's natural and and appropriate
Grant Macaskill: to identify with characters in the Bible, because of the way that they act.
Grant Macaskill: and because of what you perceive to be similarities with your own way of acting.
Grant Macaskill: So that's funny. I can understand why people do that.
Grant Macaskill: But I think you need to be quite careful about it, partly because I don't think
Grant Macaskill: the Scriptural narratives are often interested in giving you access
Grant Macaskill: to some of the aspects of of character or personality that might help us to to to know that someone is artistic.
Grant Macaskill: but partly also because I think you can sometimes end up
Grant Macaskill: representing a character as as autistic
Grant Macaskill: and as affirming their qualities
Grant Macaskill: when the narrative itself actually wants to use those qualities as as representative of something negative.
Grant Macaskill: So
Grant Macaskill: you know, I I want to be careful in talking about this example, because I know that some people might really cherish it. But I think people
Grant Macaskill: should be careful. identifying
Grant Macaskill: Nicodemus and John 3 as artistic
Grant Macaskill: in case what they end up doing is identifying a character who, at that particular point within John's narrative.
Grant Macaskill: is supposed to be embodying
Grant Macaskill: characteristics that are
Grant Macaskill: criticized. or that, or deemed
Grant Macaskill: genuinely to be to be spiritually problematic. You can end up in an ironic way.
Grant Macaskill: actually almost justifying those approaches to autism
Grant Macaskill: that that use autism as as metaphorical for some kind of spiritual deficiency.
Grant Macaskill: So that's one example.
Grant Macaskill: The other example would be the the kind of dramatic ways that people
Grant Macaskill: take the phenomena or demon possession.
Grant Macaskill: and see those phenomena as equivalent to some of the physical phenomena that that can be present in autism, and I think there's all kinds of reasons why that's a very dangerous and very wrong way to approach the material.
Kris Song: I do it. Does that answer your questions, Chris? No, Absolutely. And I mean, but in particular, the
Kris Song: the accounts that I've seen of
Kris Song: the garrison, demoniac or demon possession in terms of lots is my, it's it's dreadful. It's dreadful theology, and I think it needs to be. It needs to be identified as such. But
Kris Song: in in your book you you lay out several principles that that might help correct
Kris Song: sort of this, this, this rush to
Kris Song: you know. What does the Bible say about autism, and then sort of
Kris Song: go about it. And in a particularly haphazard way
Kris Song: out of these principle, is there something out of these principles? Excuse me. Is there something that
Kris Song: that that you think would be particularly helpful to sort of help instruct readers of Scriptures and churches of Scripture to to sort of reorient
Kris Song: the way they interact with Scripture
Kris Song: in a way that's sensitive to some of these themes and topics.
Grant Macaskill: Yeah, I think there's probably
Grant Macaskill: I I probably can't single out as one thing. So I think there's probably a few things.
Grant Macaskill: One is.
Grant Macaskill: I think, to be attentive to
Grant Macaskill: the material
Grant Macaskill: form of Scripture as as a collection.
Grant Macaskill: You know the the way that we often think about the Bible as normative
Grant Macaskill: often uses this concept of the Bible as a manual for life, or as a handbook for life.
Grant Macaskill: and that's just not a fair way to represent what the Bible is.
Grant Macaskill: I mean. I sometimes joke with people that
Grant Macaskill: you know I I have. I have lots of manuals for software, and for I was going to say Vcrs. Which ages me quite significantly. But for various other devices.
Grant Macaskill: none of them, none of them walk me through what I need to do by sharing poems
Grant Macaskill: and proverbs, or periodically bursting into song
Grant Macaskill: in ways that appear to be completely irrelevant to to the task i'm trying to fulfill.
Grant Macaskill: But that's how Scripture exercises it's authority that or maybe a better way to put it, is that how Scripture shapes us and norms us, and I think we need to be see, need to be attentive to that.
Grant Macaskill: And part of that attentiveness is also about
Grant Macaskill: paying attention to the kinds of proportions that things have. So the stories about demons in Scripture are actually
Grant Macaskill: they're not everywhere.
Grant Macaskill: They have a a particular proportionality.
Grant Macaskill: and they need to be contextualized by other elements.
Grant Macaskill: And also, I think, at the same time, we need to be careful that what we're not doing
Grant Macaskill: is squeezing lots of
Grant Macaskill: actually different accounts together.
Grant Macaskill: because it suits us to do so.
Grant Macaskill: Now, what I mean by that is that actually, if you look at what people are doing, comparing the phenomena of autism
Grant Macaskill: to the phenomena that are associated with demon possession narratives in in the Gospels. They're not actually the same phenomena. And the way you get there is is by kind of squeezing them all together.
Grant Macaskill: and particularly in the Gospel narratives.
Grant Macaskill: so that you, you can somehow find a way of of making what you find in those narratives
Grant Macaskill: that the experience of autism
Grant Macaskill: that are some superficial similarities
Grant Macaskill: which allow people to do that. And I think what's important, this is really important.
Grant Macaskill: I think
Grant Macaskill: the fact that people
Grant Macaskill: come to their Bibles
Grant Macaskill: from interpretative cultures.
Grant Macaskill: that perhaps immediately presume
Grant Macaskill: what what might be called Biblical. or what might be understood to be Biblical.
Grant Macaskill: so that a particular culture might enable that way of thinking about the demonic and the phenomena that go with it.
Grant Macaskill: And if you're not in a culture that does, that you might not reach for that.
Grant Macaskill: that you might, and you might be smug about the fact that you're not reaching for that. But you might reach for other
Grant Macaskill: things that are equally problematic, that you call Biblical.
Grant Macaskill: and you might project them onto the reading of autism. So a lot of it, I think, is about being aware of
Grant Macaskill: what we, what we're dealing with in Scripture the way that it utilizes narratives alongside lots of other genres. the way that it utilizes command material within and alongside lots of other genres.
Grant Macaskill: and and be very careful about jumping to apply the term Biblical
Grant Macaskill: to any single bit of it dislocated from its context.
Grant Macaskill: That's that's very often, I think the the pathway to an inappropriate use of Scripture.
Grant Macaskill: I'll see that again, because there was a big globe, but that, that, I think, is very often
Grant Macaskill: the way that we end up with an inappropriate reading of Scripture. It's it's a kind of moving from a particular
Grant Macaskill: badly read proof text to badly implemented
Grant Macaskill: application.
John Anthony Dunne: Great. Well, I think Madison's got to run. So we'll say it's a fighter medicine.
Madison Pierce: I can. I can probably say my thing really quickly. If that would be. Okay, yeah, I just need to be done by one.
Madison Pierce: So sorry, everybody. I'm: sorry. Normally, we don't do this in front of the guests. It's a little awkward grant. I'm gonna tell you what I enjoyed. I
Madison Pierce: I really enjoyed hearing Grant encourage us towards these more creative, or maybe more varied expressions in worship
Madison Pierce: as somebody who comes from a relatively traditional framework, you know, who fancies myself Anglican, you know it's hard to kind of imagine moving away from something like a liturgy. But I think it's so important to understand the freedom that we have in the Liturgy that it's a starting point, and that it gives us space.
Madison Pierce: So I really loved that.
John Anthony Dunne: Thanks, everybody.
John Anthony Dunne: So I I had never heard before that Nicodemus, you know, might might be autistic, or that some scholars have have suggested this that has never occurred to me. I'm. Assuming now that the case might be based on the the literalism of you know, to enter into my mother's room again. I i'm not sure if that's how the case is made. But i'm i'm curious about that. But but maybe for our listeners a a modern example that might be coming to to mind is the representation of Matthew in the Chosen, and i'm wonder I well, i'm wondering if you're familiar with
with that. And if you have any thoughts about that, not only, of course, why they would choose to do that, but how they have executed it, and what what your thoughts are on that?
Grant Macaskill: Yeah. So I haven't watched that series. But but my wife has, and she she talked about precisely that point.
Grant Macaskill: So, in a sense, I can't really comment
Grant Macaskill: on on the show, having not seen it.
Grant Macaskill: Maybe the best thing would be just to ask you to comment on it actually, and then I can make a response.
John Anthony Dunne: Well, I you know my My assumption is that what they've done is they've they've they've They've they've considered the way that Matthew is presented. I think they're working with the methane priority. I have some reasons for that which I don't need to get into. But I think what they've done is they've they've noticed the detail in numbers and generations, you know, starting with the genealogy and all of that, and I think they've They've maybe just thought that Matthew seems more particular and detail oriented than the others, and that must
John Anthony Dunne: or not must. But that could, you know, in their kind of creative way, reflect some neural divergence. And and maybe, you know, partially, too, they wanted to to represent neuro divergence, because, as you said statistically, that that's probably likely.
John Anthony Dunne: I don't know if they've done it in a helpful way. I I not going to comment on that. I'd love to hear your thoughts like I said, but but at least that idea I mean you. I think you've already given us some some sort of guidelines about. You know these, the the problematic ways in which we might make assumptions, and I think that's
John Anthony Dunne: operative here. But I am
John Anthony Dunne: I. I am curious. If you do get around to watching it. What you think about the
Grant Macaskill: I mean. It sounds from what you've described. It sounds like an interestingly positive account, and you know for for what it's worth.
Grant Macaskill: You're right to say the the the literalism in Nicodemus is what what prompts some people to see
Grant Macaskill: him as an artistic character.
Grant Macaskill: and, as I say, I actually want to be sympathetic to that, and and and understand why people would identify themselves with Nicodemus. Because certainly many of us, I, I think, have found ourselves in conversations where we've
Grant Macaskill: interpret it something that someone has said.
Grant Macaskill: not necessarily in a in a literal sense. but certainly in the sense that the works.
Grant Macaskill: in a sense that the the words taken at face file you would appear to to imply. So I think that is, that is where it's coming from, and if
Grant Macaskill: I understand why people would want to do that, I think they just need to be careful.
Grant Macaskill: And again for what it's worth. I think there are other characters who.
Grant Macaskill: like Nicodemus, display some of the kind of detail, attention, and persistence
Grant Macaskill: that would often be a marker of artistic people.
Grant Macaskill: Paul is actually another example. I think, of someone who reflects that
Grant Macaskill: John or the the of Revelation.
Grant Macaskill: the the sheer
Grant Macaskill: scriptural facility that this person has the capacity to to link Scriptures by by catchwords and key texts.
Grant Macaskill: and to build something that is a remarkable
Grant Macaskill: constellation of texts and narratives, and sub-narratives that's incredibly systematized.
Grant Macaskill: Again, you know. Lots of that
Grant Macaskill: would be in line with the the particular kinds of interests and persistence and interests that autistic people often have. But I think I just think we need to be very careful with with doing that, because there, there's not really a lot of evidence that the Scripture gives us.
Grant Macaskill: and, as I say, in Nicodemus's case, we could run run the risk of
Grant Macaskill: taking something that actually within the context of the narrative Arc.
Grant Macaskill: of John's Gospel
Grant Macaskill: is that that what we find in John 3 is supposed to represent the qualities that are represented as as bad qualities in John, one in the prologue of the Gospel. That's the kind of thing that i'm getting at.
Grant Macaskill: I will say. And this is connected to your comment about the representation of Matthew in the Chosen.
Grant Macaskill: and particularly that interest in detail and in systems, and so on.
Grant Macaskill: You know, my hunch is that some of the
Grant Macaskill: major figures in theological history have actually been autistic.
Grant Macaskill: and actually partly because of the interest in language, is a system. and interestingly, actually because of their interest. In how
Grant Macaskill: the non-literal aspects of language work. you know. Again, there, there's often, I think.
Grant Macaskill: too quick
Grant Macaskill: a decision to talk about the autistic use of language as literal
Grant Macaskill: or as as tending towards literal.
Grant Macaskill: and often a a a presumption that goes with that the autistic people can struggle with metaphors. I don't think that's the case that it's certainly not in my case, and I think other autistic people, I know would say that they don't have a difficulty with metaphor, provided they know it's a metaphor.
Grant Macaskill: and provided there is good reason to recognise it as such. The difficulty is when you encounter language acts where where the meaning
Grant Macaskill: it is
Grant Macaskill: country
Grant Macaskill: to what the words are saying, which is precisely what's happening with sarcasm or or with irony.
Grant Macaskill: And part of the reason I mentioned All of this is that there are figures in the history of theological reflection.
Grant Macaskill: who have been deeply, deeply interested in what metaphor is doing, why metaphor is necessary.
Grant Macaskill: but also what the limits of metaphor are. So, for example.
Grant Macaskill: the the Church has historically tended to talk about God using male language.
Grant Macaskill: and to talk about God and male terms, including terms of the Fatherhood of God. And there is a long tradition of reflecting on the fact that that is an extended metaphor.
Grant Macaskill: and then at some point, if you're going to use that language well, you need it. You need to use the metaphor. If you're going to say anything about God. But at some point you also have to recognize that it's a metaphor, and that God is not male.
Grant Macaskill: And I think
Grant Macaskill: you know my my sense is that probably some of the people who developed these theologian. These theologies
Grant Macaskill: are attentive to the way language works as a system
Grant Macaskill: are attentive to the way that language works within theological systematizing. and are attentive to the limits of it, which is also why, I think, really interestingly.
Grant Macaskill: they're very interested in the fact that at some point
Grant Macaskill: silence is required that at some point the only way to speak properly about God is to say nothing.
Grant Macaskill: That's a I think, a pretty interesting insight when you come from a community that has lots of people who are not speaking
Grant Macaskill: non-speaking is is the language that is usually preferred over non-verbal. because they can be very verbal.
Grant Macaskill: They just won't necessarily use their voices to do it.
stan ng: Well thank you Grant for just coming on here, and just you know, shedding light into some very relevant things that are happening, not just in churches, but also in education, sectors, public policy, and and even beyond. And I guess, to help us land the plane here.
stan ng: You know. One thing that definitely was really I I opening for me was how how you, how you display just
stan ng: the situation, and how it's almost like a double edge blade, where, on one hand, we want to bring to light the unique experiences of individuals. But the same time.
stan ng: when we use an all inclusive Biblical perspective or language, it it could possibly minimize or even hurt those in in particular groups. And
stan ng: I guess, just as a final as final comments here I I i'm sure this is something that you know it's been brought up multiple times in our conversation. So
stan ng: so if any last reflections, you have it also. One thing I would also like to hear from you is, you know, reflecting on celebration as Well, what are can you provide us reflections or recommendations, and
stan ng: maybe things that you've experienced or seen where we can celebrate, where victory, you know, was one, and things to look forward to in light of the things that we've been talking about today.
Grant Macaskill: Hmm.
Grant Macaskill: When you say celebrate or or things look forward to, do you mean in terms of places where there seems to have been real accomplishments in
Grant Macaskill: the, in, in, in the actual experience of autistic people, and and in the the incorporation or the acknowledgment of autistic people.
stan ng: Yeah, exactly that. I know a lot of times we when we talk about these situations, we we tend to, you know, pit some comparison between one versus the other, and
stan ng: in some in some, maybe in many situations, we tend to come into the conversation with
stan ng: with with preconceptions of you know, one has to be greater or less than the other, but more importantly, for us to be able to actually, you know, celebrate just accomplishments, especially from a you know from
stan ng: from church, from the from application in the church, or in theological studies just in and Reno, that that you're a part of, and for our listeners to also be able to look forward to as well.
Grant Macaskill: Yeah, I mean, I think
Grant Macaskill: one of the I think one of the challenges in answering that is, that the best examples of things to be celebrated
Grant Macaskill: will often happen at such local level.
Grant Macaskill: where they're so meaningful that they don't necessarily register outside of that local level. So it's actually very difficult. in a sense, to talk about it here, because
Grant Macaskill: the danger is that what we're drawn to talk about celebrating our our big public things, or or big things that seem to have captured the awareness of people.
Grant Macaskill: and they're wonderful.
Grant Macaskill: or they can be wonderful, but they can often, I think, blind us to.
Grant Macaskill: And there I'm. Using an expression that is actually
Grant Macaskill: would be troubling to some people. They they can actually, I think, cause us not to realize some of the little victories.
Grant Macaskill: some of the little transformations that are happening along the way.
Grant Macaskill: so i'll give you one example. That's not actually in the church, but that, I think, represents something beginning to shift in public awareness.
Grant Macaskill: And about it's an example I've talked about already. which was the
Grant Macaskill: the do, a series of documentaries that ran on BBC National television in the Uk.
Grant Macaskill: Which was
Grant Macaskill: led by Chris Packham, an artistic scientist.
Grant Macaskill: and involved Chris working with autistic people of different kinds.
Grant Macaskill: whose autism manifested itself, embodied itself in different ways.
Grant Macaskill: and giving them voices to to affirm their identities, to express their identities.
Grant Macaskill: and interestingly to do so in front of the people that they work with study, with live with.
Grant Macaskill: by making short films
Grant Macaskill: that they led. So what what they did was he would work with these individuals to create a film
Grant Macaskill: that would communicate something of their experience. So I think the word communication here is the absolutely crucial one.
Grant Macaskill: but because it was led by them. instead of
Grant Macaskill: promoting an autism, awareness that was actually already refracted
Grant Macaskill: through the perspective of the neurotypical.
Grant Macaskill: It was developing an account of autism, awareness that was coming from autistic people themselves. So it was aistic led.
Grant Macaskill: and what I think is to be celebrated there is that that's
Grant Macaskill: that's a a very public example.
Grant Macaskill: The people he was working with, where, if you like very ordinary
Grant Macaskill: people.
Grant Macaskill: But it was a very public example of what can happen when autistic people set the agenda for how autism is represented.
Grant Macaskill: Now, that's also beginning to filter through into research, and there's a growing number of conferences and a growing number of
Grant Macaskill: bodies that are particularly concerned
Grant Macaskill: to develop and promote, and host autistic lead
Grant Macaskill: research. and to involve autistic people in the design of research, to have autistic researchers at the heart of it.
Grant Macaskill: but also
Grant Macaskill: to have partners for for the research coming from the artistic community
Grant Macaskill: rather than just coming to artistic people and researching them with a set of questions that the neurotypicals have drawn up. you know, which inevitably read autism through a particular lens.
Grant Macaskill: and that, I think, is something to be celebrated, because, although it's big and public.
Grant Macaskill: the more that that can become a model for theological ways of thinking about autism.
Grant Macaskill: Some of those bad theological ways of thinking about autism I talked about. They don't begin with the autistic person talking about who they are.
Grant Macaskill: what They' like, how they think
Grant Macaskill: I the experience the sensory world I mean one of the big shifts. We've not really talked about it that much today, but one of the big shifts in autism understanding is that the sensory issues have really moved to the center of the conversation
Grant Macaskill: in a way that they weren't always in the historical models of talking about autism.
Grant Macaskill: so the more that we can get to a world where
Grant Macaskill: the discourse about autism is led by autistic people.
Grant Macaskill: whether they're formally diagnosed or not.
Grant Macaskill: The more that we can get to a place where the discourse about autism
Grant Macaskill: is led by artistic people and informed by autistic people.
Grant Macaskill: It takes us back to the point that we made when talking to to Sydney
Grant Macaskill: that
Grant Macaskill: really that's that's just love in action. It it's it's a it's a body.
Grant Macaskill: I see there's one more thing I can see.
Grant Macaskill: but that that's a body that's allowing its bits
Grant Macaskill: to
Grant Macaskill: operate and to be valued.
Grant Macaskill: and and not to invest all its time in. You know the face, the smile, or whatever
Grant Macaskill: the the other bit.
Grant Macaskill: The I think it's occurred to me recently is that and this this ties in with
Grant Macaskill: the way that you framed the question around the inclusion. Agenda inclusion. Agendas can often be very
Grant Macaskill: superficial. They can often be very static. They can often emphasize.
Grant Macaskill: You know what we're starting to describe as optics what you see when you look at something and accounts of neurodiversity can themselves actually just become part of that.
Grant Macaskill: We, our understanding of
Grant Macaskill: a diversity that is included is simply that there's lots of diverse people
Grant Macaskill: in the space visibly represented.
Grant Macaskill: Really. neurodiversity
Grant Macaskill: is only a live when the different
Grant Macaskill: minds and the different parts of the body
Grant Macaskill: are actually functioning. So, in other words, it
Grant Macaskill: it's not enough to think about Paul's image of the body in anatomical terms. We've got to think about Paul's image of the body and physiological terms. This is a living body where the parts are alive.
Grant Macaskill: and where the parts recognize that they gain something
Grant Macaskill: by the presence of those bits
Grant Macaskill: that this can sometimes overlook and under value.
Grant Macaskill: So I think the more that we move towards
Grant Macaskill: an artistic led, and more. We celebrate examples like that
Grant Macaskill: documentary examples of artistic led representation. and the more the within our churches
Grant Macaskill: that's translated not just into an acknowledgment and an accommodation of the presence of autistic people. But it's translated into a facilitation
Grant Macaskill: of those people being artistic.
Grant Macaskill: and and that contributing again to the life of the church, you know, if you didn't have your autistic people in the church.
Grant Macaskill: if you don't have your assistant people in the church.
Grant Macaskill: and if you don't enable your artistic people to thrive in the church, your church isn't thriving
Grant Macaskill: it. Your church is is a facade
Grant Macaskill: which is often what churches are content to be it. It's an exercise in optics
Grant Macaskill: rather than an exercise in physiology.
John Anthony Dunne: Hmm. Well, Professor Mccaskill, thank you so much for that that final challenge, and thank you so much for your time for for joining us and for having this discussion with us. We really enjoyed it.