John Anthony Dunne: Well, Dr. Dal: thanks so much for joining us.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): It's nice to be here.
John Anthony Dunne: So we're really excited to have a conversation with you about caregiving and agency, as we think about disabilities further in this conversation. But we want to begin by
John Anthony Dunne: just hearing more of
John Anthony Dunne: we. We want to begin by hearing about your back story, and how you got interested in this space. And what what led you into it?
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Yeah, that's a great question. And it's a it's a meandering journey. It's it's not one that I anticipated kind of growing up. I never really saw myself as being concerned, or like intersecting with a lot of people with disabilities.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Looking back, of course I can see I can see that happening at different points in my life. But it's not something that really rose to my consciousness as I was thinking about career paths. What have you?
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): And then I got interested in philosophy and theology, and started studying philosophy, and just got right into it, and was was very excited about all this, and I was completing my my degree in philosophy, and realizing I didn't have much of a career outcome in mind for that. So it actually
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): was a godsend, and i'll i'll use that word when somebody else in my church came alongside me and said, hey, Keith, I think you would be great working this field of intellectual and developmental disability.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): And at that time I I really hadn't considered it as a as a career option. I think there's many people out there that probably Haven't thought a whole lot about that being an option, and we can maybe even get into some of that. And and some of the reasons for that. But I hadn't thought of myself as
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): being an overly caring and compassionate person, and certainly not considering myself a bad person. But at that point in my philosophical journey as well, I was really wrestling with
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): All right. So we talk about ethics. We have these great systems of ethics and Christian ethics, and and all of this. But where is the actual outcome of that? How do you put that? How do you translate that into real life.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and for me a lot of the emphasis on that came through. So it's not. It's not just enough to examine the doctrines of Christ. But what does it look like
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): to have a real relationship with the truth and the truth being Jesus? And so I was in this place of openness to what God would have for me
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): going that I I I to do something. I can just think about things all the time, and then to have this friend come alongside and say, hey, I think he would be good for this field, and so I got involved with it, and it turns out that it it was a great fit, I mean, maybe not right off the start. And if you ask the the people that I support right off the start, they might say.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Yeah, Keith really didn't know what he was doing. But over time I I grew to to meet people and get to know what they loved, what they wanted to do with their lives and be able to accompany them a little better in that way, and and i'm just thankful for their grace along the way.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): so anyways, that I carried on with that for a while worked in recruitment for a while, and then an opportunity to step into this role came through where it's kind of a pastoral theological role with the organization. So
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): we are the largest provider of developmental services in Canada, and as a Christian faith-based organization that meant thinking about. Okay? Well, what does it mean to to work closely with the government, but also have this faith basis? And it was a really neat opportunity just to connect 200
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): that a philosophical and theological study with the work that I was doing, and and kind of the culture as an organization which then connected me with Hans Rinders, got me involved in the the Phd program with him.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): which resulted in dissertation, which resulted in this book. So that's kind of a a shortcut at the end there. But on all part of my journey
Steph Judd: thanks so much for sharing Keith, and it is interesting. The way which
Steph Judd: often the way that people get involved in this space is through left, you know, left Fields kind of
Steph Judd: unexpected turns in in our life. When you say, when you got involved in this field, can you just particularly say what kind of what kinds of roles you were we were doing? And I know this comes out in your book a lot. But what? So day to day? What? What did your job look like?
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Yeah, for? Sure for sure. So when I started it was working in a home where we supported 5 5 men at that time with intellectual and developmental disabilities.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): It's always difficult to put. You want to be careful about putting like grades on disability, but they did require a significant level of of care, of accompaniment in order to live the lives that they were looking to live. And so I worked with a team of people in that home.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and then was involved in some administrative and Hr. Roles within the organization, and now it's more of a a pastoral and theological role. So, both working with direct support employees and professionals. On how do we support the spiritual needs of people who use their services
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and thinking about that cultural piece? Right? What does it mean to be a Christian faith-based organization, and then grief and law support as well, and then really involved in the theological space to, so that you institute on theology and disability and other types of organizations like that.
Steph Judd: Thank you.
Steph Judd: And so and so. And, John as you in in the Intro, you.
Steph Judd: it's okay. Tell about
Steph Judd: the organization, right?
Steph Judd: Yeah. I think that one of the interesting things that comes out
Steph Judd: in in the first part of your book is that you look at
Steph Judd: the way that we talk about vocation.
Steph Judd: and
Steph Judd: whether there are any distinctives offered by the Christian tradition in the way that's used, and something i'd like to hear from you
Steph Judd: is about the way that
Steph Judd: calling and vacation is used, particularly in
Steph Judd: connection with caregiving. Can you talk to us about that? And the way that it kind of goes in these 2 directions of transcendence and eminence.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Right? Yeah. And that was definitely something I was working through when I first joined the organization, and I spoke a little bit to to that in terms of the ethical dilemma I found myself in right. How do I put some of these things that we're talking about this, whether it's Christian compassion, or or whatever you want to call it. How do you put that into practice?
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): But then, as well as I was as I was working direct support, and as I was in recruitment I noticed so many people coming in
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and to apply for a job, and they already had somebody in their life with a developmental disability, and so they might have been providing care for a son or a daughter or a sister. What have you in their personal life, and then coming to work with us as well. And I just found it so compelling
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): that people who who basically were already doing this full time, wanted to be involved in this this work for their career as well. And and you really, as you started to talk to people and get to know them, and in my work with grief and loss I really see that devotion to a sense of calling.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and and you see it in the the the Christians fear you also see it kind of from a secular perspective as well where people find a real value in their work as they're working alongside others. And so in my book I I use phrasing called to and called by that for many people. This the sense of being called by someone
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): is is really crucial for me. It was more like I'm being called to this line of work by where I find myself.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): And then, as you as you go through, as you get to know people that really becomes a relational connection, which is that which is at the heart of my book in the sense of
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): How are we all connected? What is that? What is that sense of draw? What is that sense of calling? How is God calling us to one another through the world and through our our circumstances and our journeys.
Steph Judd: Sorry, my mouse.
Steph Judd: So i'm just thinking.
Steph Judd: John, do you want to? She. Is this a good point to kind of
Steph Judd: do? Unconscious of giving giving listeners like I got some handholds to.
Steph Judd: She should be zoom out at this point. Should we do like a
Steph Judd: okay? Let's get a broad sketch of the the main guts of
Steph Judd: that. The overrack actually kind of thesis
Steph Judd: of your book.
Steph Judd: and we should do that, or should we, or should we stay here with the idea of vacation?
John Anthony Dunne: Yeah, we should probably do a an overarching, you know. Idea of the book. In fact, it might even be better to put that before the question about calling vocation just
John Anthony Dunne: to to as an on-ramp to that.
John Anthony Dunne: So I mean I could go ahead and just ask that really for Yup.
John Anthony Dunne: Thanks for that, Dr. Dow. Could you tell us about your book formed together? Can you tell us a bit about? You know what you're trying to accomplish in that book? What its thesis is. Some of it's kind of general.
John Anthony Dunne: Some of the general points that you that you make in it as well.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Sure. So in in my work as a direct support professional, I noticed that a lot of the language that we had a lot of the language that we were wrestling with Was
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): professionalism right? What are the ethical codes? What are the expectations. What's the documentation? What's the accountability? And there was a a real system in place in order to monitor compliance.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and it it certainly was a part of the picture. I don't want to to minimize that.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): But my question as a theologian was, what are the resources there from the Christian tradition that help inspire this work to help direct this work
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): ere
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): over care if that makes sense to not get in there and prescribe things for people, but to enter in in a good way, in a healthy way.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and and I also realized that from my philosophical studies, for instance, that so many of our ethical traditions rely on the intellect. They rely on us, figuring everything out. What's the best course of action? How does rationality fit into this? How do we understand people's intentions.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and just as I was accompanying people with intellectual and developmental disabilities, it it really is ableist to say, oh, you can't live a moral life. You can't come alongside another person in a good way.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): if you can't figure this out right and and so that really left me searching for what's what's left, and has the whole Christian tradition kind of succumbed to this idea of the the hyper, cognitive and and and so that's why, through my book I'm kind of asking the question.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Where can we find those resources? What do we look for?
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): And then, towards the end, getting into? So what are the virtues of care. What are the virtues that we can look to? They don't rely on this hyper-cognitive ability to be able to figure things out.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): But really look at our interactions with one another, paying attention to one another, being in in grief and situations of lament with one another, entering into each other's story, and and we can go into those in in more detail later. But that's kind of kind of the arc that I found as I was working alongside people.
Steph Judd: What did you find when it came to what what resources are available
Steph Judd: to to us? Given that so much of, as you say, so much of the Christian tradition. And this is something that we've spoken about with a number of our guests.
Steph Judd: Is this
Steph Judd: hyper cognitive?
Steph Judd: Has this hyper cognitive bent.
Steph Judd: which is underly, and you know it has these these foundations in.
Steph Judd: you know the image of God being connected to rationality, and
Steph Judd: and some of the dangers of that, and I know that you talk about that. But what what are, what are some of the the the headline
Steph Judd: unique resources that are on offer when you go deeper into the Christian tradition
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): right? And I do early on. I do rely on the image of God being kind of a grounding theme, especially because it's touched on by so many different disability theologians, and i'm sure you've had those those conversations before it is. It is a real source of inspiration. But
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): I also find that we can take it too far right. And again you probably got into this a bit. But when you start talking about oh, you need this for the image of God, or you need that for the image of God. So what I took from that was.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): How do we deal with mystery? How do we deal with opacity? How do we deal with a lack of of recognition, so, as it concerns the image of God? I deal with Emmanuel Levinus, for example.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): who really gets at the moral or the ethical draw that we have to one another as in the face of one another, and in the face of God, and so that that in itself isn't, maybe specifically Christian.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): But then, as we look at how that works itself out in the life of Christ. We kind of move from the Amago day to the imitation of Christ, right? And so how do we look to what Christ does in interactions with one another, and have that same posture, have that same approach.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): And and for me it all goes back to that example that that Christ gives us
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): both in the things that he did, and in the ways that we maybe weren't able to recognize everything that he was doing through his life in the unrecognizability of Christ in that sense, that he comes as a baby; that
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): he does not have an appearance, that we desire him some of those those aspects of stigma right that there is. There's a real closeness there. But there is also a distance with Christ, and so, coming to understand how that operates in our interpersonal relationships was was important for me as well.
John Anthony Dunne: So imagine that Steph follows up from that with this calling vocation. And then I'm, assuming that has just taken place.
John Anthony Dunne: So as you're talking about calling and and vocation in relation to caregiving, i'm wondering if we could talk as well about the sort of calling and vocation of those who are being cared for, and specifically the agency of those who are who are receiving care. One of the themes that have
John Anthony Dunne: one of the themes that has recurred throughout this series has been the the issue of agency. When we were doing some textual analyses earlier in the series, we we talked with Kylie Crab, who focused on the role of impairments
John Anthony Dunne: in early Christian texts for for protagonists as opposed to peripheral characters who are often there as
John Anthony Dunne: as Megan Henning talked about as as a moral test that they they're They're really just there to sort of show us something about the protagonist who does not have a disability or an or an impairment. And just thinking about this issue of agency in inter
John Anthony Dunne: in terms of in terms of caregiving, I'd love to hear your thoughts about that dynamic, and how you how you engage that issue.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Sure, that's a that's a great question, and one that I wrestle with all the time as well, even as I. I was writing this, knowing that
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): I I felt like I had something to share; but it wasn't it wasn't my story, or it wasn't just my story if that makes sense, and I think
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): too often people and and i'm guilty of this at times as Well.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): 2 people too often people run right past that, and just start telling the story anyways, and kind of inscribe a story on somebody else's life.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): And so there's there's kind of a a methodological way in this book that I try to set up the stories told that a. As I talk about my my journey with one person or or another, and I I change their names and and whatnot. But
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): where I am telling a piece of it i'm telling what I can see of it, what I can see of God working through our encounter through my own life.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): But I never want to claim that story, and i'm. I'm grateful that there are so many accounts given. I kind of use that language accounts being given by disabled theologians, disabled advocates these days.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): where
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): where people can speak directly to their own story and and for people with intellectual and developmental disabilities.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Part of the challenge is we really just, Don't, take the time to listen right. Then we're looking for. We're looking for bite-sided species stories that we can put up and that's. Why you see so many inspirational stories floating around the Internet that oh, Isn't, this great, that this person achieve this goal, or or what have you?
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): But it takes so much time to come alongside someone and and get to know them.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): And I know, in in the final years of my mother's life she had a a brain tumor, and
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and one of the challenges there was, what does, what does her story look like now that before she would in large part you could point to all the things that she did for us as kids, and the ways that she invested in in our lives. She was our teacher, she, you know, provided for us in so many ways. What does that story look like after?
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): She's not she. She's not sure about her schedule anymore. She's not sure about what she can do in the kitchen. She's not sure about all those things. I'm. I'm very thankful that she continued to remember us and who we were through the end.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): But it really struck me, and it wasn't until pretty late actually, in my my writing of this book, that that I recognize that these these stories that we tell connect so closely to my own life and my family as well. And so.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): yeah, by all means, wherever we can, helping people to share their story in different ways for themselves the aspects of the story that they want to share, and that might look very different from what we're looking to hear from them, right? But you also see that working out in the disability advocacy, space.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): where let's be honest. Often we look for those really comprehendable stories. Even here they're easiest to share. They're easiest to to talk about the disabled god by Nancy Eastland.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): It it it kind of foundational work, and i'm sure You've talked about it before, where she says, You know this book. I don't know how this book connects to people with intellectual and developmental disabilities. So we're not going to focus on that.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): And and on the one hand, I think it's great that she did that. That, she said. I recognize. I don't don't know really what i'm talking about there. But, on the other hand.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): we do need to ask those questions, because otherwise you end up with kind of a hierarchy of disability as well from from those who can tell their story in a way that other people can easily comprehend it. To those who maybe have a more difficult time doing that in the language that we would expect them to.
Steph Judd: And I think that that that the bifurcation there, and
Steph Judd: it's something that's present, even in
Steph Judd: not in the theological space, but just in the political advocacy, space in that it it often does lend itself towards people with physical disabilities who can still participate in the
Steph Judd: the hyper rationalist, cognitive kind of world in which those who can
Steph Judd: present a well-
Steph Judd: a a and you know, I think, that that it? It is a real, a real challenge to know how how to. And I think that this is
Steph Judd: something that Brian Brock talks about in in his kind of wrestle with talking about his sons.
Steph Judd: a Adams story and bearing witness to their witness essentially, and and
Steph Judd: I, I I appreciate the way that you, you you hash out some of those
Steph Judd: the difficulties and the barriers we face whenever we are trying to
bear witness to the stories of others who cannot necessarily
Steph Judd: package their their story in ways that are
Steph Judd: readily recognizable or digestible to us. Can you talk a bit about some of those barriers in a little bit more detail.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Yeah, for sure. And and I want to pick up there as well on this sense of what we, what we look to as being rational. What we look to is making sense. And and this is even within the Christian tradition, or in philosophy. Or what have you?
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Because I think I think that's part of of the problem as well
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): is that it's not necessarily. And you just have to go on Twitter for a couple of minutes to realize that it's not necessarily the rational arguments that are compelling people, perhaps more and more so. Perhaps it's always been this way, but so much of our lives are driven by instincts, assumptions, projections, and and so the the middle part of my book kind of deals with these myths of transparency, right? This
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): these lies that we tell ourselves about how much we know and how much we understand, and what's actually driving us right. And that's that's part of the questioning I do, of of moral theology and moral philosophy along the way is.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): if we're If we're building these systems based on an assumption that we understand people's intentions. Then we already need to back up right. We. We already might be a little lost there. And so when we encounter somebody else, we
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): We know from research that probably within the first tenth of a second we've already made some kinds of
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): judgments about them right, based on the way they present. We've already kind of put people in a box, and we really only tend to confirm those judgments from there. And so
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): you know whatever they say from that point, unless it directly contradicts what we've already come to believe. We'll kind of wrap that into our assumptions about the person themselves.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): And so.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): yeah, I think that's part of the project here is to say
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): that an act of Christian humility is to start to appreciate all that I don't know about myself in my own story that I tell about the people that I encounter in my day to day, and then
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and then about God, and about what God's story looks like, how do? How am I open to kind of the movement of God and the world around me and the people around me, and even being opening to to questioning. Maybe some of my own theology, and I know I'm. I'm grateful for this series that you're doing, because
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): disability theology really helps to confront some of those norms that we've we've established. It really helps us to confront some of those things that a lot of people take for granted as part of theology, and say, Well.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): I don't know if that's really the case. I don't know if that's really what God is calling us to that maybe God is calling us to listen to some other voices and and change the direction we're headed.
Steph Judd: Yeah, and I think that that's one of the
Steph Judd: recurring themes
Steph Judd: that's come out in this series has been around that
Steph Judd: the the rupture.
Steph Judd: you know, assumptions that
Steph Judd: often
Steph Judd: a person with a disability does present
Steph Judd: when we encountered them in in our everyday life.
Steph Judd: because the assumptions that we kind of carry around
Steph Judd: with us when we, when we do great, go about our lives today.
Steph Judd: and I think that that that invitation to pay attention
Steph Judd: is something that can be a real gift
Steph Judd: to us, particularly when it comes to.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): As you know i'm not going to go there. Sorry. No problem
Steph Judd: just going to confuse things a bit more, and
Steph Judd: i'd love to hear from you about this idea you mentioned a few times before about encounter, can you? And that that in your book that is one of the the Lynch pins of of the way that you unpack care, giving particularly. Can you talk to us a bit about what you comprehend in the idea of encounter?
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Right? That's that's a great question, and one that I continue to to wrestle with, and I think I wrestled with throughout the course of this book.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and part of the reason for that we get into it a bit with with the idea of call and vocation. Right is that
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): we can never quite put our finger exactly on what that draw is to one another that there is a I I think lavin us does a great job of analyzing the the the the ethical obligation we have to one another.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): but it's
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): it's
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): It's confusing. It's astounding. It's mysterious, and
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and it's it's difficult to describe what it looks like to really get to know somebody.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): And so that's yeah, like you say, that's the really essential part of the book, and one of the most interesting parts is well from a theological or a philosophical perspective, because it doesn't tend to get talked about a lot because we can't right. And so we are talking about in that encounter.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): You tend to start to form beliefs about the other, based on appearance, but based on a presentation whatever. And then you start to put words to it. And so, if you're always trying to back up to get at the the heart of what it means to meet one another who's creating the image of God
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): that God is calling you to in a way, then you're never actually going to get at that. So for me in this work it is the it's the heart of of moral obligation
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): to one another.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): And yet it's it's really difficult to articulate what that means, and I think the idea of being being formed together, that each each of us holds a part of one another's stories
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): is is a piece of that picture as well. That I don't know fully who I am until I get to know who you are and you can share. You know what God is is teaching you about me, and so that's beautiful. It's also really hard, because it confronts the myth of
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): individualism that I can just come along and tell you who I am, and and we can go from there, that it means that I have to be really attentive in those relationships, to to listen to your story, and to hear how yours intersects with mine.
Steph Judd: And how does caregiving in terms of like in the kind of more professional sense.
Steph Judd: but also in the way that you know people in you know, domestic lives often find ourselves in situations where you know we we're caring for a family member or a friend.
Steph Judd: How does that
Steph Judd: highlight
Steph Judd: particular aspects of encounter in ways that are distinct from other forms of encounter. You know everyday life.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Well, I think we talk about how
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): our sense of expectation gets disrupted right? And
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and so often our interactions are pretty much on script. So I go into the grocery store or I pay for something. I know how gonna have a brief conversation, maybe, about the weather or whatnot, and I carry on, and and it's surprising when you look at it, how many of our interactions are like that.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): But when we, when we are kind of confronted, i'll put it that way with, whether it's for ourselves, we encounter an injury or illness, or what have you or a loved one encounters that we enter into very different relationships that we might not be prepared for? We might not be used to right.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and that can be really challenging in a church service, for instance, where you expect people to come down and sit quietly in the pew and stand and and sit. And what have you to have somebody that requires care through that, or who might express themselves differently.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): shout Hallelujah! At all the wrong times, whatever it might be that that confronts us that shakes us up. That makes this question that makes us uncomfortable, right? And so
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): what do we do with that? Do we?
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Do we go towards that, or do we back away? And i'm sure you've heard through the course of this podcast? The stories of people with horrible rejections from church that
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): are pretty unbelievable right When you think of our call to love our neighbour as ourselves, and to follow Christ in that way. It's pretty unbelievable when you hear how horrible these stories are. But there's a kind of fear there about entering into these kinds of care relationships where I don't know what's going on
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): right. And at Christian horizons we we accompany churches, and and thinking through aspects of accessibility.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and I often say that a big part of that is just giving people some words so that they can go through the fear
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and actually get to know somebody. Once you get there. It's not so bad. Once you start to realize. Okay, we're all in this together, and I don't know exactly what's happening. But I know this is important. I know God is calling us to to care for a minister to one another. Then it gets a lot less scary.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): But i'm also really interested in what the Church does with that, and what's brought us to this place in in the first place, of like being so standoffish when it comes to people. Let's just say people in need, and that might be ourselves. That's in need. Right that discomfort. We see it a lot in in grief and mourning that we don't have the words to say, and so we give some kind of pithy comment and and move on. And but but oh, they're in a better place, or you know, whatever
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): whatever the the statement might be. But how how has it come to this place when at the heart of Christianity is, is is Christ who who died, who suffered on behalf of of the Church of the world?
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Right? How have we gone to this place that we're so uncomfortable with difference that we're so uncomfortable with disability.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): They were so uncomfortable with not having the answers.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): It's shocking. But I think it also makes a lot of sense when you just see how, even sociologically, how we tend to offload a lot to whoever will take it right. And and i'm speaking as somebody who works in a social service agency, right? And and we believe that this is good work. We believe that people should be paid and honored for the work that they do.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): But I also believe that the Church has a role to play in that in coming alongside people as friends, as fellow disciples, as you know, being ministered to buy, whether it's people with disabilities or people with chronic illnesses, or or what have you? And
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): And so as kind of my past oral side is, how do we become part of the picture that God wants to paint for the church?
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Right? I love the phrase, a landscape of care.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): a landscape of care, and so asking, You know, what does that look like now? I think, through the pandemic. We were kind of shocked at how quickly our systems of quote unquote care fell apart. We were like I was kind of depending on that. I thought it would just be there, and now it's not there anymore.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): And again, that's a that's a shock that causes a real disruption.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): And and for the church kind of from a theological perspective, I think it really begs the question. Well.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): what was God maybe calling us to do all along that we've dropped the ball on
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): right.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and I think there's so much more that could be talked about there in terms of how we work in our communities, how we see our role in in supporting one another, and knowing each other's needs, and having those difficult conversations, because
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): we're all going to be there at some point right? And and the question is, are we going to be able to turn, turn to our siblings in Christ, to be able to meet those needs? Or are they going to run away from us, and and sometimes I think it's a 50 50 flip of the coin.
Steph Judd: Yeah. And I think that it's it's interesting that.
Steph Judd: as you describe those kinds of sociological movements
Steph Judd: towards specialization. Professionalization of
Steph Judd: all these kinds of things which originally, you know, in previous generations, would have been provided within the family
Steph Judd: unit.
Steph Judd: and
Steph Judd: it. It's interesting to think about. Well, on the one hand, we're so wedded to ideas of efficiency and economies of scale. And and honestly, I think part of it is is a a a fear of doing the wrong thing. So like you describe those conversations that people get awkward
Steph Judd: about. What what do I? What do I talk about? Would just just be a human to to them. You You mentioned that. So when when you're equipping people in your line of work, you you say
Steph Judd: you You give them the words. I'll give them some a stub to start start conversation. What what do you? What do you recommend out of curiosity.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Yeah, that's a great, that's a great question.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): And at the heart of it I would say
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): that it's it's all about humanizing one another that we create these walls of.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Okay. This is something new.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): And so I don't know what to say, and so like you were getting out as well. I don't want to stay the wrong thing.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and so often that translates to. So i'm not going to say anything at all right, and so you can see how how the best intentions there can. I can go sideways pretty quickly, and so sometimes it involves just talking about language, and we know that language is, is always changing and
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and adapting, and and let's be honest. None of us always have the right words. I don't even think that was the right way to phrase that.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): But so talking about, you know, for people with intellectual and developmental disabilities.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): it's kinda come from the person first movement, and so often folks would prefer to to be referred to as people with a disability rather than a disabled person.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): But, hey, if you know your name, if you know their name. That's that's an even better place to start right it. So again, kind of humanizing that this is an individual person with their unique likes and and dislikes talking a little bit, maybe, about identity first conversations, too, which often gets at the heart of
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): well. How does this person relate to the disability, because it might not be the way that you relate to it Being using a wheelchair to get around might be something that for you is kind of frightening like. Oh, I wouldn't want to do that because that Hasn't been your life that hasn't been your experience for this person. It might just be
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): how they get around, and and not really not really something to make a big deal of. So find out what it is for the person where they're coming from what's important to them, what? The barriers are right, and I think there are some pretty there, some pretty obvious common ones that we talk about in terms of
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): physical accessibility or or communication, or what have you? But people might be encountering barriers that you just wouldn't foresee right, and so getting to know them, and kind of walking alongside them is is so important in that regard
Steph Judd: as you were talking before. I think that
Steph Judd: one of the compounding factors in our apprehension around.
Steph Judd: How do we encounter people that are different to us? Is the fact that so much of our life has been stratified into people that are just like us.
Steph Judd: whether that be in our church services, You know you. You you stratify into people that at the same age and stage, and there's an and even like politically, you know, we only associate with people, or have conversations like or deep relationships with people that agree with us, or share the same values as as we do.
Steph Judd: and that that that muscle of
Steph Judd: relationship across difference has atrophied in in ways that are catastrophic for our common life.
and
Steph Judd: so that that invitation that's presented when whenever we encount people that are different to us is something that yeah, it might be uncomfortable. But it's a good discomfort, and I think that that's that's something that's come out. You know a lot of
Steph Judd: what is something that to me came out from a lot of the the work that that comes through in your book.
Steph Judd: One of the
Steph Judd: pivots that you
Steph Judd: kind of
Steph Judd: one of the places that you land in your book is the idea of
Steph Judd: Well.
Steph Judd: is there a distinctive ethic of Christian care? And what are what are some of the virtues that are associated with that? Could you unpack that for us, please.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Yeah, I'll. I'll certainly do my best. I think it's a continued. It's a continued question, because.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): on the one hand, we don't want to discount. We don't want to completely discount professional ethics, and the work that's being done there. We don't want to discount
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): other religious approaches and kind of the depth of of thought and ethics there.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): but obviously for for the Christian, it comes back to Jesus
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): right. And and so, as we look at the way that Jesus encounter people. And I love how some of the episodes in the series have dove into that a little more. What do those encounters that Jesus had looked like.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): And one of the things that I love about that is that Jesus Doesn't just set up a list of dos and Don't right. Jesus does not set up a professional ethics of care for all those who identified as Christians, or
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): or set up a form for us to fill out. When we're trying to decide something, he gives us the example of a human interaction, a personal interaction
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): which really puts us on the spot, doesn't it. It doesn't give us a ready answer in in situations.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): And again, that's beautiful, but it's also hard and and you can see the Church's desire to kind of set up all these systems as quickly as they could after the fact in order to say, yeah, this is the dues and the don's of the situation.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): And and I think this for a reason that Jesus does. That is for a reason that Jesus told stories and parables and things that have a lot of mystery at their heart, and it's it's the reason why disciples would come to him afterwards and say, we have no idea what you were talking about Jesus. Can you
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): help explain that to us? Right? And and I think that's also the value of our conversation here. Conversations and books like this, and disabilities, studies and disability theology that as we get to know each other, and as we hear how how different experiences have been received by different people, we can start to piece that together
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): right that we can't bring into it. A full understanding of this is the right way to do things. It's the wrong way to do things, but we need to figure that out along the way, and none of us have to have the full picture of that. So yeah, I certainly. And it seems like the obvious Sunday school Answer. But I certainly look to to Jesus in that.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): And even the fact that Jesus didn't come as was expected. Right? Did it just didn't come in glory to take back the kingdoms of the world, I think, really reveals to us that
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): that Jesus continues to come to us in ways that we least expected.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and if people who we would at least expect to encounter Jesus, and and sometimes that's ourselves right Sometimes Jesus is working in our our own lives and mysterious ways, and and we need other people to come around us and say, hey, you know I I really felt encouraged the other day, because you brought a sense of peace to that conversation that
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): a
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and that can be that can be an opportunity to give thanks to, and to really learn how to work together in in humility.
Steph Judd: something that I've been wrestling with
Steph Judd: over a long time, but particularly as as we've been talking with people in this series has been
Steph Judd: the kind of tension between.
Steph Judd: On the one hand.
Steph Judd: yes.
Steph Judd: wanting to on a
Steph Judd: wanting to be careful to honor the agency of every person you encounter and create space
Steph Judd: for them in whatever way that looks like.
But also I think that there's
Steph Judd: I. There's been a discomfort in me around
Steph Judd: almost a
Steph Judd: a resistance to being recipients of
Steph Judd: compassion and care
Steph Judd: from others
Steph Judd: in the sense that you know my experience. I've got a physical disability, and my experience of that has been
It was
Steph Judd: very I. I've resisted it every every step of the way, mostly, but it's been one in which.
Steph Judd: you know, Reciprocal
dependency
Steph Judd: to me seems to be at the bedrock of relationship, both human and divine.
Steph Judd: And so, on the one hand.
our need presents a fertile opportunity for
Steph Judd: intimacy with other people, and being known.
Steph Judd: So.
Steph Judd: on the one hand, Yes, I want to say yes, of course, you know, people with usability are not just
Steph Judd: passive recipients of care, but also is that such a bad thing as in like? Is it like
Steph Judd: I'd love to know what your thoughts on that kind of the tension between those 2 things is.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Yeah, I think i'm just gonna take a a second to to think about that, cause I know you can. I've been calculating to me like it's hard, and I think
Steph Judd: I think that I
Steph Judd: and in a lot of your work. It's like the reciprocal nature.
Steph Judd: It's the thing that
Steph Judd: I think that i'd love to know what your experience in that is, because
Steph Judd: i'm thinking about it.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Yeah.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): yeah, it's a good one. I'm: not gonna back away from it.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): No, I think that's a really good question, and it's it's one that each of us
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): wrestles with on a personal level an ongoing way all the time right, and we see it in
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): in direct support as well.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Where too often people quote, unquote providing care.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): define themselves by that
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): provision right that i'm a giver and and actually a lot of caregivers, and i'll. I'll speak for myself at times as well can be really bad at setting boundaries and saying, No, I I need to take a break, or I need to set a limit on this, because i'm not able to give any more I need to receive from people and from those around me. And so
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): there are some. There are some really tough things in that question.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): because when we talk about vulnerability so, and there have been people that
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): you know, I I think rightly so, have emphasized that vulnerability gets a bad rap
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): that we maybe shouldn't be so scared of it.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): but at the same time just saying, vulnerability is good, really doesn't answer the question. It kind of it keeps those systems in place
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): that keeps certain people vulnerable and not others
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): right if we, if we just accept vulnerability. And so I think each of us has this tension between like establishing more agency and talking about agency a bit like, how can how can I be more of an agent in this way, and then recognizing when I need to receive and that that's okay, that's a
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): that's a meaningful part of the human experience. And and Jesus greatest work was essentially in this act of receiving in this act of of passion right of having something done to him, not the conquering Hero kind of an approach.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Right? So I think there's a profound theological truth in that. That's just really difficult to grasp on a personal
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): level, and and maybe becomes easier when we see that we also have gifts to give
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): right. And so Christian horizon's vision statement, is it
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): People with disabilities belong to communities in which their God-given gifts are valued and respected.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): And I think one of the challenges is that if we, if we present a certain way as maybe having a certain kind of need then, like we were talking with. But with first encounters we tend to get defined by that right. That's the place that we hold. And so
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): we we not only need to be a community that is willing to meet needs
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): mit ctl. And but a community that's willing to acknowledge gifts and contribution right? Because I think for each of us we all have. We all have needs, and 150
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): in in some cultures, and and i'll maybe speak to a masculine culture it can be really difficult to acknowledge needs. You come across this week, and so how do we confront some of those stigmas, Some of those barriers tear that apart so that we can both receive encouragement and celebration of
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Yeah, I love that you chipped in and helped out the other day and and Sunday school, or you helped out the other day and bring in the food for the Potlock, or you know, whatever whatever it might be, and those are very churchy examples. But of whatever it might be in our own life.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): so that when it comes time, and we all have that time that actually I could. You really use a casserole right? I could really somebody bringing food by my place. We're not. We're not too uncomfortable to ask, and and
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): the temptation can be to put that on a singular individual right to say, oh, you need to be comfortable with expressing your needs, or you need to recognize the gifts that you share. But I think that's also a community responsibility that who in our community
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): doesn't have their gifts recognize, or maybe we haven't created spaces for those gifts to be recognized.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and and who in our community maybe isn't able to express their needs because of the expectations, a conscious or unconscious expectations that we've set for people.
Steph Judd: Yeah, I think that that's so. That's so helpful, Kate. And I think that
Steph Judd: being comfortable with not being in control of a certain relational dynamic like, I know for me, i'm much more comfortable giving
Steph Judd: care than receiving it as it as a default, because you know of of whether it be the way that i'm constitutionally made up, or whether it's the way that the communities i'm most comfortable in I get. It feels more, it feels more in control. I feel more.
Steph Judd: You know you. It's more, it it's easier to anticipate the outcome.
Steph Judd: and
Steph Judd: that's why the the being open to to both, like both. A good but it's it's having the dexterity to be comfortable with both. That is a real. It's a real challenge, and it requires, like the the the ethical resources, to be comfortable with both, and open yourself up to being
Steph Judd: being receiving from other people in ways that you don't expect
Steph Judd: it's wild. It's it's a real. It's a really like it's quite a ride.
Steph Judd: It's. I don't know in in my experience. It's been one that
Steph Judd: is worth the discomfort
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): absolutely, and i'll just say in advance, you can take this. Take this out of the podcast if you want to.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): So you're You're talking a little bit about control there, and I think there are really good reasons why we want to be in control and why our culture is structured
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): for control as well. So I've been reading Hartmut Roses, the uncontrollability of the world. I don't know if you're familiar with this, but so he takes the the word uncontrollable basically from theology this idea that God is
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): outside of beyond our control. I for me, personally, I think of Cs. Lewis and Aslan is not a team lion right like that that kind of idea. But he's done a really interesting thing sociologically here.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): where he says our culture is increasingly focused on control. Right? If you think of control of information, control of
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): our bodies, and how they move, and our health and all these things, and so but the more control that we have, the more unpredictability. We also add to the system, or we can't always anticipate the results.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): And so, if you get into bioethics, or what have you that one change might result in a whole bunch of other changes that you're not familiar with, or with information. For example, we have all this information at our fingertips.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): but the increased information tends to only add to our anxiety, because we know that there's so much more we could be searching for or no, or you think of your news right? You have access to all the news in the world so potentially. You can know most of the major things that are happening. But then it's just entirely overwhelming and destruction. So
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): his point is that we need these spaces, where we experience a a degree of agency, but also a degree of uncontrollability.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): He uses something like snow falling, for an example where you can experience resonance because you're not in control of that snow falling right. And for me that points back to God that points back to kind of agency at the the heart of everything that that is.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): But for him. He especially acknowledges that in our human relationships, right where every time we encounter somebody else, there is something about that that is outside of our control, and it can lead to this experience of resonance right where you discover something new.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): And and I mean, I think that's a beautiful picture, and I'm. I'm. The type of person that likes to have things under control that likes to plan out everything in advance. So it's a good a good challenge for me to, and a discipleship challenge, I would say, to look for those faces of resonance rather than for those spaces that I control and know everything that's going on.
Steph Judd: Yeah, that really reminds me of. And I i'm terrible at remembering where I've read something. So somewhere in the last little while I read something in which it was talking about
Steph Judd: have
Steph Judd: fundamentally as humans
Steph Judd: to be human is less about fiat and more about response
Steph Judd: which I really I really like that, because yes, there is a we do have agency over how we respond.
Steph Judd: But fundamentally we are responding to
Steph Judd: the other people we encountered, but
Steph Judd: primarily at at its heart the divine, the divine call that calls us into being and into into relationship with Himself.
It
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Well, I was just gonna yeah. And
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): i'm just gonna say Victor Frankel has a quote, too, that in between stimulus and response
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): there is a a space. There is a choice, and in that in that space is our is our freedom. Basically and i'm kind of slaughtering that quote. But the idea there being that there is so much freedom when you realize that you don't just have to respond the way that you always have. But you can make new choices. You can respond in different ways. I think that's that's really beautiful. What you brought up
Steph Judd: Question, is it? Do you
Steph Judd: something? I would I was thinking about asking, Was it like kind of a a more practical kind of question? But maybe it goes better kind of earlier.
Steph Judd: Then, like like landing there is around.
Steph Judd: I'll just ask the question, and then be, John, if you think that you don't have time that that's fine. I'm also conscious that Kate, you need to.
Steph Judd: You need to go soon, but i'll just go
Steph Judd: when you're talking about how encounter requires of us to not just participate in existing kind of relational tropes.
Steph Judd: How does that
Steph Judd: fly
Steph Judd: in organizations.
Steph Judd: when we're often relying on policy
Steph Judd: in terms of the way that we
Steph Judd: we organize ourselves in in kind of whether it be in the business world or in community life.
Steph Judd: How
Steph Judd: how does that translate?
Steph Judd: So when you're talking about how in you know.
Steph Judd: having an ethic of Christian care
Steph Judd: requires of us, you know.
Steph Judd: to not necessarily rely on
Steph Judd: the kind of
Steph Judd: relational templates that we're used to.
Steph Judd: How do how does that work in in those kind of Christian organizational settings.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Yeah, it's a good question. I think you can look at it in different ways, depending where you're coming from like.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): So the answer would probably look a little different in a church than it does in a Christian social social service organization
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and a lot of our systems and a lot of our policies are set up to avoid some pretty horrible things from happening.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Right They're They're set up to have a measure of of control over the situation, and I think many are really needed and valuable.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): but that also needs to be paired with recognizing the humanity of each person within an organization. And so
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): within a an organization like ours, it provides a kind of care. There's the there's a person who service, user if you will, the person who pays for the care and basically the boss right when you want to think of it that way. If
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): so, the person with the intellectual disability they are looking for a good home in which they can live their life, and they are paying people to provide those services. And
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): so hopefully that kind of upsets the power dynamic a little bit; Some, too, that they are the ones in in charge, and so there has to be a degree of autonomy there, and that person might decide to do something that doesn't fit within policies, existing policies
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and positions right? A lot of things come down to money as well. How do you? How do you access the money, for instance, to get to a new place, or to get transportation, or to figure out how to have the right staffing in order to support this person, to do this thing
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): right. And so there are times where I think there's that we have to look at the disruption. This person is asking to do something new right. They want to go to the Water Park, and we don't have liability insurance for that, or we don't have a staffing in place, and we like Those are the kinds of boring questions that we get down to. Well, just.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and part of you wants to say that, like, just go to the water Park like.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): But we we need to have the kinds of flexible policies and systems that say, okay, what are our values? What is what is driving us here right? And well, what's driving us is wanting to support this person, to live their life because we believe that they're creating the image of God.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): right? And so if that's our value, then it's a matter of saying, okay, now, what do we need in our policies in order to be able to accommodate that.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Similarly, I think with I
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): professionals right. The professional systems are great, but you also needed each person to be empowered with. Okay, what are our core values here? What is driving us as an organization? So if they come up against those policies, those very well intentioned policies
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): that stops somebody from doing something that's important to them. They have a mechanism to say, you know, as as a moral agent, and they probably wouldn't call themselves that, because I've never heard anybody comes upset. But you know I think we should do this because we say this
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): right so there has to be those mechanisms, and let's be honest. They should happen in a timely fashion, too, to say, All right. Our whole system needs to change. And and then, if you go back to the church context, I think if you have somebody coming into your space who worships God in a different way.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): So we had. We had a a a communion service on Mother's day, and we're so we're kind of an Anabaptist organization, a a church
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): very similar to to many Protestant Evangelical churches, and it was. It was on Mother's day, and we had somebody sitting at the front who has some kind of intellectual or developmental disability, and we got to the end of the service, and he just shouted out like.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): What about Mary and for us? That's not something that had really occurred to us in the course of the service.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): and maybe something that so subconsciously we would put to the side as oh, this is more of a Catholic belief, or or whatever. But in that moment it was just so profound like. I I wish we could have given to more space for that person to to get up and talk about. Well, what about Mary like? What did that look like like that would bring so much depth to the service that we were having. And so what do we do with those interruptions in the service, whether somebody not being able to get
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): in, somebody not being able to get onto the stage like, and so we might have policies and procedures that are all fine and good. But we have to look at what is what is driving us is the is the love of Christ compelling us in this moment?
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): Or are we so bound by our policies and our sense of control, and our sense of not wanting things to get out of control that we aren't even able to welcome somebody who is a member of the body of Christ into into ministry.
Steph Judd: Yeah, I'm.
Steph Judd: Moment of confession. I'm. A lawyer. And so a lot of the some of my work is involving, you know.
Steph Judd: you know, drafting a lot of those kinds of policies, and I think that it's it's an interesting impulse that drives a lot of organizations is
Steph Judd: wanting to eliminate risk, and being afraid of
Steph Judd: what you know. Part of it is a very good impulse to
want to
Steph Judd: protect
Steph Judd: people that need protection.
Steph Judd: But also
Steph Judd: there is this fear and that kind of paralyzing.
Steph Judd: effective fear which means that we often relinquish our own agency and our own ability to make
Steph Judd: you know.
Steph Judd: navigate difficult decisions something. So my my father was in aged care for his, his professional life.
Steph Judd: and one of the things that he was really passionate about was not allowing, not just deferring to policies and not allowing policies to to kind of expand and fill the whole decision, making framework, but
Steph Judd: leaving room so that you can
Steph Judd: take risks for people at risk.
Steph Judd: That was his kind of one of the things, and it's it's really hard to do. So. Yeah, I think that it's. It sounds like
Steph Judd: I I feel like the work that you've done is a really important piece, and equipping people to
Steph Judd: to do that important work and do it well.
Thank you.
John Anthony Dunne: Well.
John Anthony Dunne: Dr. Dow, thank you so much for for joining us, and engaging us in this conversation about the virtues of of of caregiving and and the mystery that that's embedded in that dynamic. And and this topic of agency as well, and just really appreciate all of your insights and thank you for the great work that you're doing.
Keith Dow (Christian Horizons): It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me on the show.